Argentine runabout project

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Well, here goes:
As one of the longtime and prolific posters, this is my first attempt at posting about a project I have undertaken. Many will recall the 16 foot custom runabout on ebay, here in Va., that I bought. A real heavy built, one off, neat boat, with a WW II vintage 100 hp ford flat head. I pulled the engine out today and will begin a cleanup of the filthy bilge...but the finish and etc on this boat is very good. The flathead runs fine, boat not in the water for almost two years though. Here is where heresy beings: I am planning to glass the bottom so I can use her without swell up...got a copy of "covering wooden boats in fiberglass" on the way. Now this is not a CC so I can make up the rules as I go along. More post and request for advice will follow if I manage to get this one pic to attach. John in Va.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:27 pm

Gee, it worked! Now should I pic a large size for future pics??? Which size? this one was called website and email size...

John in Va.

RRGadow · Post by **RRGadow** » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:32 pm

ok..John...Ill be the first one. As the guy that caught you on a large TUPPERWARE boat across the marina from my slip...dont fiberglass the bottom, is it in bad shape?

btw...I just purchased a 16 foot 1956 Lyman..its my first lapstrake.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:35 am

Yeah Ryan, you can be the first assailant! And you did catch me on a fifty foot tupperware Bertram...guilty, but don't want one. I am not set in stone about the fiberglass, I got the engine out yesterday and will work on flipping her over and seeing what I have...I am not into leaky runabouts though and will be experimental in working with this one-off boat. We need to keep trying new bottom options. Remember, I once had a Century with a bottom made out of bathroom wall petition material...FRP board (fiberglass reinforced plastic). I did not do the application, but while I had her it worked well...they just screwed it on with a gazillion little brass screws and guegeon gooped the whole bottom over that. ??? By the way, I snooped around your boat and it is looking GOOD!..but you are glassing the deck....but that won't kill her and the bottom IS a different story..jury still out. thanks,
John in Va.

RRGadow · Post by **RRGadow** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:49 am

thanx..yeah, ive decided to glass the deck in case I have to bring it down to NC where there are no covered slips....i dont like leaks!

...you dont like a leaky runabout??!! its wood!

Stop by this weekend if you get a chance...ill be there thru monday.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:25 am

now that the engine is out, I might try putting her in the water to see how bad she leaks. The bottom, the whole boat, is way overbuilt and looks better than any CC really...but ?? I want to be able to put her in and pull her out...have no time for swell and yell.
I hesitated to get her wet at all after she has not been in for 18 mos. +..??? If I am going to cover the bottom, best to leave her dry maybe?
Ryan: will do.....

charlesquimby · Post by **charlesquimby** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:20 am

To me, glassing a bottom is the kiss-of-death for wood bottoms. Once moisture gets in and the rot spores start, there is absolutely no going back. Yours is not a large boat and, since you are going bottoms-up anyway, pull the planks, examine the substructure, make repairs if needed, and apply an 1/8" 1088 skin and re-plank. Your existing planks may be suitable for re-use anyway. Use Dannenberg's methods. When you are done you will know EXACTLY the condition of the most important part of your boat, and will be confident in its integrity when she hits the water next spring. Just one man's opinion. C.Q.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:15 am

charles, I appreciate your input and that is why I have posted.
Still, this boat is a one off super over built deal..the planks are riveted on and getting them off would be twice the problem of a screwed bottom...
I am looking for alternative out of the box ideas...and will make my final decision based on the examination of the bottom when I roll her over, and will remain steady in my concept that this is not a CC and I don't want a trailer queen. I think that glass is the death knell of mostly the larger boats it is put on...? MANY thanks for you input! John in Va.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:04 pm

I continue with disassembly on the Argentine Boat. Amazing. Thousands of copper nails with roves, double rows along all plank edges on three inch centers. Much of the metal work is custom and shop made...the rest of the metal is top of the line bronze stuff. There is zero rot in her so far. Winter project to be sure...but the start has been eye opening. Still preping/cleaning the bilge...most all interior components out now. Few weeks more cleaning and then flip her.
Comments still welcomed. Still debating glassing bottom...anathma perhaps...but open to discussion.
John in Va.

Doug P · Post by **Doug P** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:31 am

John,-
Interesting engine box...Can you post a picture.

I've always wondered about "bed liner" paint (guck) for pick ups. It is some what flexible and perhaps would be a new source for bottom repairs.

mfine · Post by **mfine** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:43 am

I am curious what you think the benefits of glassing the bottom might be? The expected outcome of glass over old wood is trapped moisture and accelerated rotting where you can no longer see it and repair it.

If you want a safe fiberglass bottom, I think you need to completely strip the old wood first which makes it no easier or cheaper than the other bottom options.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:15 am

mfine and others: Thanks for your concerned comments.These debates are EXACTLY what I need!
As to why I would want to glass the bottom:
1) I do molded plywood Whirlwinds, they don't leak a drop...launch from trailer no matter how long on it, no leaks, go boating.
I can't STAND anymore swell up time boats...not doing it...be there done that...too old...no more.
2) I think we all need to get real about these user
quality boats, especially one off oddities like this Argentine one. They are not going to last forever any more than we are. Experimentation is good and these are the user boats to experiment on...in my opinion. I am months away from the bottom job..so I am listening and researching. KEEP POSTING FOR ME!
3) GET THIS, upon examination there are no weep holes/limber holes in the ribs of this boat anyway..so how is ANY moisture going to get to the drain hole in the transom?? Water can't really get from rib section to rib section...and there is no present rot...pump sump was in the forefoot area and can't imagine how that worked but so well.
My position is that boats are drying and dying on trailers and under tarps more than they are from boats we glassed and used until they died an active death?? Fine: I was just on Keuka lake wish we had met up.
John in Va.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:20 am

Doug P: I too have wondered about that goop they use in truck beds....not much more weird than the FRP bathroom wall covering used on my former Century...
This is the outside the box stuff we need to consider I think.

As to the engine box on the Argentine: It is bent plywood! I will try to attach a pic...I think there must have been a more conventional one at the outset and this is a replacement..but this whole boat is shop built one-off stuff...and really cool and amazing hand work or high quality.
John in Va.

Doug P · Post by **Doug P** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:37 am

I have no problem swelling my boat (25' Roamer Sportsman Express)

Oberon01 · Post by **Oberon01** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:14 am

Well, fiberglass bottoms - lots of opinions. I am just replacing the bottom on my BB, as there is some softness present and general circumstances suggest it is the time to do it, though it is nowhere near failure. The bottom is fiberglass covered, and to the best of my knowledge was installed somewhere between 25-30 years ago at Tahoe. Beneath the glass appears to be the original planked bottom. This boat was quite heavily used by the prior owner, and is used very frequently now. That this bottom lasted 25+ years under this usage suggests to me that a fiberglass bottom is likely no inherently worse than any other kind of bottom, and almost certainly better than a straight original style. It may not be original but it is functional - in my case anyway. I can only imagine that the lifespan of any replacement bottom is predicated on many factors, but I have no real practical reason to believe fiberglass offers any advantages or disadvantages over several of the "modern" alternatives. My own experience suggests it seems to work fine, if properly installed.

In the case of my 19' Barrel, I am not going back to fiberglass - it is going to be a no-soak "modern" traditional, for aesthetics more than anything.

It is worth noting that my Gar Wood also has a fiberglass bottom, installed by the prior owner 15 years ago or so. It was surveyed at the time of restoration in 2009 and found to be in perfect condition, so I left it. In two seasons of use it has been problem free and dry. No matter what bottom one has, it will have to be replaced at some point. Put something on that you can use and get out and use the boat.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:34 am

oberon: VERY GOOD repsonse....just what I am looking for! I have just read the old late 70's early 80's classic: "Covering Wooden Boats with Fiberglass" by Allan H. Vaitses...now that is very dated stuff...evidenced by the total lack of environmental concern and protection seen in the pics of the unprotected workers...didn't even use gloves most of the time. What is current scholarship on technique? Guegon goop and etc? Vaitses' idea was to save boats that would otherwise be junked...and that he did. He used chopped MATT not cloth and saturated with resin etc etc..and he worked mostly on big boats and those rightside up..tough! I think properly applied this glass over bottom deal will work for my situation and again encourage opinions...oberon's is by far the most positive yet...and on a BB too...not a lesser boat.
Keep it coming. John in Va.

mfine · Post by **mfine** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:45 am

John,

If you have experience with molded plywood bottoms, why not consider that over glassing it? Molded plywood can't be that much more expensive and it is a tried and true construction method. I know I personally would feel a lot better with a new plywood bottom than a glass over who knows what bottom.

I totally get that not every boat warrants a $1000 a foot done to perfection mahogany plank and 5200 bottom. It just doesn't make financial sense for a lot of boats. The key is finding a balance of cost, time, and safety that works for you and your boat. If you have the time, I would flip the boat and remove the old planks to inspect the planks, the fastening and the frames. If all is well perhaps add a thin inner layer of plywood, CPES the old wood and reassemble? Or just go molded plywood? I don't know the answer just thinking out loud I guess.

Doug P · Post by **Doug P** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:15 pm

Problem/Solution.
Is it the organ or the organist?

90% of the early fiberglas boats covered wood....and some still do, IE Balsa Cores

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:38 pm

Mfine,

I have certainly condisered a new ply skin instead of the glass. The problem is the atypical construction method...well done, but highly difficult to work around. The scantlings beautiful but are light/slight, and the bottom is double plank, diagonal then longitudinal, but she is RIVETED , essentially, (copper nails, roved and bunged THOUSDANDS OF "EM)) and way more of those through connectors than you could possibly remove without risk of substantial damage. Trust me, their method of attachment is super strong but super difficult to retrofit. Also the flare is extreme and not much ply, even laminated, could accomplish that sweep/turn.
My problem is this boat has not been wet for going on two years..so she is ripe for covering and yet I have not idea how bad she really leaks? Never seen her in the water. So, do I launch her and take notes, or use the dryness to advantage and cover her. Sure that brings swell/split risk, but the B-Back above from Tahoe is still going strong!!!
Many thanks, keep the advice flowing.
John in Va.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:39 pm

Doug, exactly!

Oberon01 · Post by **Oberon01** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:58 pm

John -

I would estimate that I could have got another couple of years or so out of the fiberglassed bottom on the BB, and some plank rot was starting on both sides of the forward keel. But, what else is to be anticipated after 25-30 years, for any bottom? If you can expect that with reasonable care a fiberglass bottom can give 25-30 years of service, then I don't see the downside.

I am only speaking from personal experience, not a position of really knowing anything more than what I know to be true in my own boat. Due to the apparently unique construction of this interesting boat, your options may be more limited due to difficulties in taking it apart.

Reginald Down · Post by **Reginald Down** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:40 pm

Interesting discussion. When referring to old wooden boats that were glassed over many years ago, you have to ask the question "What motivated the owners (at the time) to use this method?"

Was it cost? (vs complete bottom replacement)

Was it the best technology at the time?

Was 3M 5200 or West System an option?

Was it because the Tahoe boats were having problems due to the dry (high altitude) climate?

And are any of these questions / answers relevant in terms of what is the best method for the subject project?

mfine · Post by **mfine** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:27 pm

Well, if the unique construction method makes plank removal very difficult, that would be a good answer to my original question, "what advantage do you see in fiber glassing it".

Perhaps trying to protect the wood with CPES or something else that will strengthen it and slow rot, and then covering with glass might be the best economically reasonable way for you to keep the boat floating. The question would then be what products to treat the wood with.

The idea of hiding potential problems does not sit well with me but there are always compromises.

FWIW, we had a fiberglass boat where the wood core rotted and at less than 15 years old, the hull spilt and she sank like a rock (FAST). Many of the same make and model are still floating today more than 20 years later so who knows. The issue was 100% invisible and that's what bothers me most.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:07 pm

Thanks for you comments texx
and to Mfine: I am only considering this glassing for one reason...no time to swell the bottom when I want to "go boating" there are no bottom problems evident or reported by the previous owner... I am just fishing for advice on skipping the swell time so I can go have a "swell time" lol....

Keep up the good give and take here....

thanks to all

John in Va.

Oberon01 · Post by **Oberon01** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:19 pm

Good questions from reg, and I was wondering some of the same things, especially given the prevalence of this bottom replacement method up at Tahoe. My BB was an original Tahoe boat and remained there until 1992.

I have no idea what a cost comparision might be like between glass and other methods but if most of the original wood has to be replaced anyway, I doubt there is much savings.

Without knowing specifically, I would guess that 5200 or WEST bottoms were probably developed in the '60's and '70's, around the time these boats began to be thought of as collectible. That time period may also correspond somehwat with widespread availability of 5200, Sika Flex or any of the other compounds that are now in use.

mfine · Post by **mfine** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:44 pm

Are there gaps now that it is dry that you think will need to swell up? My first thought would be to try it and see if you even have a problem. I don't have to soak the original bottom on my Chris Craft. It leaks a little bit when I first put her in but slow enough that the bilge pump won't kick on even after an hour or two of running around. Well, except the year I forgot to put the plug back in, but that was different, and even then the pump kept up. I would think things have to be pretty bad to get to the point where you HAVE TO soak up the bottom before you can take the boat out for a spin. Just have redundant bilge pumps on float switches, which I would have anyway, and use it.

mfine · Post by **mfine** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:48 pm

I would guess the popular bottom method used, especially in pre-Internet days, would be most strongly influenced by what the local shops offer and what the other guys in your club and at your shows have done.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:13 pm

sure, it might be best to run her and trailer into the pond with all the engine, floor boards and etc now out of her and just study the leakage...but if I do that I will have wet two years worth of advantageous drying pre glassing...=the quandry.
AND....this boat has no limber holes or weep holes in the ribs..so you have to have a lot of water above the inside floor battens to even flow around and to a pump sump area. That has me ???? She could hold lots of water in the bilge all the time. Sure I could, and likely will, add some limber holes...but easily clogged at the small size required to not undermine the ribs. This is the essence of the ?
So: my good posted opinions of the day are:a) put her in and see if you have bad leakage, or b)glass her up and hope for half the problem free years that the Bar. Back got on Tahoe. I am still listening.
Many thanks,
John in Va. Going to the Reedville show towing two whirlwinds this weekend...join us if in the area.

Reginald Down · Post by **Reginald Down** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:24 pm

Even today, although less dramatic, methods for replacing bottoms can still vary from shop to shop, and by area - and of course by the type of boat, restoration objectives and restoration philosophy the restorer / owner have in mind.

I have noticed over the last few years that some restorers still appear to be more comfortable with one method of technology over another (i.e. West System vs 3M 5200 vs traditional), and those views are often passed on to the owner.

It was interesting to see in the recent story about those original wooden Rybovich sport fishing boats, that Pat Rybovich noted her father (Pops Rybovich) developed some of the original technology utilizing fiberglass / cold molding methods back in the 1960's.

When you look through the Rybovich registry, many of those old "Rebos" have survived and still grace the waters around the country today.

jim g · Post by **jim g** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:36 pm

To remove the copper rivets you just grind off the peened over shank till its flush with the rove. A mini angle grinder like the one shown in danenbergs book with a 2" 50 to 80 grit disc. Then use a straight shank punch and knock the copper nails out. It won't take you long to do it. Saw a guy in Maine remove all the copper rivets from a 40' sailboat in 2 working days and scrap copper bring about $3.00 a pd thats good beer money. Now putting rivets back in takes alot more time and you really need 2 people doing it to make it go quicker. But copper rivets holding power is much stronger then screwing.

Argentine runabout project

Argentine runabout project

Who is online