Active Active   Unanswered Unanswered

71 Lancer 19' Chevy 307 Distributor Conversion to Electronic

Keeping your powerboat under power is a lot easier with good advice. Post your power systems questions here.

Moderators: Don Ayers, Al Benton, Don Vogt

User avatar
quitchabitchin
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
Location: Oxford, OH
Contact:

Post by quitchabitchin » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:07 pm

I can tell you that if you have a 650 CFM carb and no major modifications, you have too much carb. The factory Carter AVS is a 425 CFM on the 327Q, which has an extra 30 HP. The Edelbrock is the same basic design as a Carter AFB.

Does the Edelbrock have the jet/metering rod setup? If so, that is the easiest thing to change to add or slow fuel supply. Get a strip kit and start changing them out.

Swapping the cam is a major project as you have to pull the engine and trans and disassemble the whole front end to change cams, so I would make sure that is the problem before attempting a cam swap.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q

CCABC Board of Directors Member

Speed71
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:44 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by Speed71 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:26 pm

quitchabitchin wrote:I can tell you that if you have a 650 CFM carb and no major modifications, you have too much carb. The factory Carter AVS is a 425 CFM on the 327Q, which has an extra 30 HP. The Edelbrock is the same basic design as a Carter AFB.

Does the Edelbrock have the jet/metering rod setup? If so, that is the easiest thing to change to add or slow fuel supply. Get a strip kit and start changing them out.

Swapping the cam is a major project as you have to pull the engine and trans and disassemble the whole front end to change cams, so I would make sure that is the problem before attempting a cam swap.
The edelbrock is a 1406 2306
From what I have researched, it appears it is a 600 CFM. I put a vaccum gage on the right side vaccum port which the manual says it is full time vaccum and it flutters between 10-15 pretty aggressively, any thoughts on what that could be? No change when I rev it to 4k without prop engaged. Have not checked under load.

Speed71
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:44 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by Speed71 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:43 pm

I have found fine slug in the spin on fuel/water filter/separator. Have drained into clear bowl after 1-2 hrs of operation and find more than a teaspoon of sandy sludge.

Sucked the tank dry to remove any residue. With new filter in place I have not taken it out as of yet.

Yes, this is a contributing factor that I have inherited but think I have bigger issues.

The main issue is the 2000-2500 RPM fall off out of the hole.

User avatar
quitchabitchin
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
Location: Oxford, OH
Contact:

Post by quitchabitchin » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:56 pm

You will have vacuum on that port at idle, it should drop if you accelerate, especially under load. You should not have as much vacuum when you accelerate under load, this drop in vacuum is what causes the power pistons in the carb to lift the metering rods in the jets into the power step. A stiffer spring on the pistons will allow the metering rods to raise with more vacuum, earlier, thus allowing more fuel.

Your distributor has a mechanical advance, you can get different tension springs to change the timing of the advance. You said it was advancing, but at what RPM? If it is not advancing until 2500, you may be losing power in the 2000-2500 range and need a lighter spring so it advances earlier.

Both of these are fine tune adjustments and either could help your situation, depending on where the issue is.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q

CCABC Board of Directors Member

User avatar
mfine
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Pittsford and Penn Yan NY

Post by mfine » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:56 am

This is unrelated to your problem, but you should strongly consider replacing the automotive 1406 with a marine 1409. The differences may seem minor but the changes were made for safety in a marine environment. Of course, if you do have a carb problem, swapping will fix it as a side benefit.

User avatar
quitchabitchin
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
Location: Oxford, OH
Contact:

Post by quitchabitchin » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:12 am

What Matt says is true. The marine carb vents differently than the street version and would be safer. The original Carter 6117's are on eBay all the time and would be a better fit at 425 CFM. The rebuild kits are inexpensive and they are very simple to rebuild.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q

CCABC Board of Directors Member

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:40 am

I agree with the last two postings, and I was a little puzzled to see the reference to a Carter 650 in the first place. The original Carter provided on the big block 427 was only 625 CFM and that was more carb than the motor needed on paper when you consider the 4,000 rpm limitation.

The Edelbrock #1409 is a 600 CFM model and it too is more carb than the small block motors need, but it works well on my 1966 327F motor, with some minor linkage issues and also some attention to allow the PCV system to still work as intended. These carbs do not have a provision for PCV, and therefore you must either drill the carb in the traditional location to accomplish this or perhaps drill a spacer instead.

Letting fumes seep out of the sump and get caught in the flame arrestor is one thing, but getting true Positive Crankcase Ventilation is another, and the former is far better. Fumes can get to dangerous levels under some conditions and positive venting is best for controlling odor aboard, and dealing with the potentially explosive fumes.

I used a wedge on my installation due to the rather steep angle of my particular installation, and these are available in a phenolic material which also helps keep your carb from cooking when you shut down. The Carter and now the Edelbrock clones are noted for cooking atop an iron intake manifold and then requiring a lot of cranking to reprime.

The 1409 is a lot more carb than a 283 or 327 really needs, but all I can tell you is mine works great out of the box.

Here is proof (at speed on Old Hickory Lake first, Cheatham Lake second, both fed by the Cumberland River).
Image

Image

Regards,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

Speed71
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:44 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by Speed71 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:24 pm

quitchabitchin wrote:I can tell you that if you have a 650 CFM carb and no major modifications, you have too much carb. The factory Carter AVS is a 425 CFM on the 327Q, which has an extra 30 HP. The Edelbrock is the same basic design as a Carter AFB.

Does the Edelbrock have the jet/metering rod setup? If so, that is the easiest thing to change to add or slow fuel supply. Get a strip kit and start changing them out.

Swapping the cam is a major project as you have to pull the engine and trans and disassemble the whole front end to change cams, so I would make sure that is the problem before attempting a cam swap.
O.K., I ordered metering rods #1437, .057x.049 and Jets #1422, .083. Will be in tomorrow.
That will get me down to 500 CFM. Was not able to locate anything smaller.

I have a complete motor 307Q with inclosed cooling system, pulled the Carter Carb. 6117. Not the best of shape. Went into NAPA to get a rebuild kit and as we know it has been taken over by Edelbrock. The recommendation was to go with the metering rods and jets, cheaper solution to at least get a base line then I can build on that.

User avatar
quitchabitchin
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
Location: Oxford, OH
Contact:

Post by quitchabitchin » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:46 pm

The rebuild kit is available from Then & Now Auto in Massachussets or The Carb Shop, I think he is in the Midwest somewhere. You could probably pull the metering rods and jets out of the 6117 and use them on the Edelbrock, they should be interchangable, so you will have other combination options.

The jets and metering rods will get your CFM's down, but may not solve your problem completely if your power piston springs are not stiff enough. If you still have the same problem, I would look at the distributor advance and make sure it is advancing soon enough. If it is, I would see if you can order a stiffer spring for the pistons in the carb, this will make the rod come up out of the jet earlier and give you more fuel.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q

CCABC Board of Directors Member

Speed71
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:44 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

6117 carter carberator jets

Post by Speed71 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:44 pm

I took the 6117 Carter carberator apart and looked at the Jets. They are 120-377 in the front and 120-380 in the back. Does anyone know what that converts to for edelbrock jets?
Would like to order the same size with metering jets for the edelbrock 1406 carberator.

Don't have a lot of knowelege in this area. Looked at putting these in the 1406 but didn't look like I could do this without taking the top off the 1406.

User avatar
quitchabitchin
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
Location: Oxford, OH
Contact:

Post by quitchabitchin » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:46 pm

Correct, you will have to take the top off to replace the jets. I think the Carter jets will fit into the Edelbrock.

Carter jets all start with 120 and the second # is the orifice size. 377 is .077 and 380 is .080, 403 would be .101, and so on.

It is unusual to have smaller jets in the front, since they have the metering rods.

Just be sure to remove the metering rods from the top first and reinstall them last, after you have swapped jets and put the carb back together. They should not be hanging out of the bottom of the top half as you put it together, you will bend or break them.

Carter and Edelbrock both recommend a larger step up spring if you are experiencing a flat spot at cruising speed, which seems like your issue. If the jets don't change it, I would look at a stronger spring so you get more fuel earlier in the powerband.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q

CCABC Board of Directors Member

User avatar
quitchabitchin
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
Location: Oxford, OH
Contact:

Post by quitchabitchin » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:10 pm

Any luck Speed71?
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q

CCABC Board of Directors Member

Speed71
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:44 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by Speed71 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:48 pm

quitchabitchin wrote:Any luck Speed71?
Thanks for the follow up... I contacted Edelbrock and they are very helpful. They sent me a tech manual, springs and meter rods at no charge. Said I was headed in the wrong direction. They coached me through the chart and asked me to replace metering springs first. I did that and ran it last night. Started to backfire up through the carb a little but no change.

To take care of the fuel tank contamination issue, started to drain the tank disconnecting and sucking it through the normal pick up in the tank. Could not maintain a suction/sifin. Have started to pull the tank. Line back to the tank is copper, which may be problematic by it's self.

Connected a 5 gal portable can right to fuel filter inlet and put in a new filter. Tested it under load on water, still no power above 2k RPMS. Changed timing a little with no real change.

I am leading to a possible intake manifold crack as vacuum gage off the carb. is jumping all over the place, not stable. So, thinking about pulling the intake manifold and checking it out as the next step. Meanwhile resolving the sand in the tank issue. Recommendations on a replacement plastic tank?
Thoughts on the Intake Manifold Crack theory?
Thanks for hang in there with me on this thing :D

User avatar
mfine
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Pittsford and Penn Yan NY

Post by mfine » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:11 pm

Vacuum leak is very possible.

For the fuel tank, once out, you can clean it or replace. Mine was in better shape than I expected so I just cleaned it out with a powerful solvent (E85). If you replace, my first choice of material would be stainless steel.

jim g
Posts: 1003
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:55 pm
Contact:

Post by jim g » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:33 pm

Speed71 wrote:
quitchabitchin wrote:I can tell you that if you have a 650 CFM carb and no major modifications, you have too much carb. The factory Carter AVS is a 425 CFM on the 327Q, which has an extra 30 HP. The Edelbrock is the same basic design as a Carter AFB.

Does the Edelbrock have the jet/metering rod setup? If so, that is the easiest thing to change to add or slow fuel supply. Get a strip kit and start changing them out.

Swapping the cam is a major project as you have to pull the engine and trans and disassemble the whole front end to change cams, so I would make sure that is the problem before attempting a cam swap.
The edelbrock is a 1406 2306
From what I have researched, it appears it is a 600 CFM. I put a vaccum gage on the right side vaccum port which the manual says it is full time vaccum and it flutters between 10-15 pretty aggressively, any thoughts on what that could be? No change when I rev it to 4k without prop engaged. Have not checked under load.
Heres a link to help you use the vacuum gauge. You can find out what direction to go with on your motor by using the vacuum gauge then any other tool. Just make sure you have it hooked to a full time vacuum port on the intake.

http://www.cdxetextbook.com/toolsEquip/ ... gauge.html

User avatar
quitchabitchin
Posts: 568
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
Location: Oxford, OH
Contact:

Post by quitchabitchin » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:43 pm

The Q intake manifolds are notorious for cracking. They tend to hold water in the rear portion of the manifold and are hard to drain. They usually crack on the bottom side, so you wouldn't see the crack until you pulled it.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q

CCABC Board of Directors Member

Speed71
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:44 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Post by Speed71 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:15 pm

quitchabitchin wrote:The Q intake manifolds are notorious for cracking. They tend to hold water in the rear portion of the manifold and are hard to drain. They usually crack on the bottom side, so you wouldn't see the crack until you pulled it.
Pulled the intake manifold to check for cracks, it appears to be fine but am having it pressure tested 4 freeze bouts in the bottom apear good and new looking.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests