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Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
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- rhysaccess
- Posts: 62
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- Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Howdy all,
I'm about to order the materials for the interior of my '56 Capri.
The existing interior is is in good condition - but incorrect and the subject of a much earlier renovation.
The Hull card says it was supplied with the typical (for its era) Special Flame Carpenter. I wish to return it to its original state.
I have searched....and searched earlier posts.
Question 1)
Appreciate that the dash and crash pad are supposed to be in Black Alligator. In how many pieces or sections, is correct for the dash pad material?
Question 2)
Is the diagram below (of the front seat) an accurate representation of how the interior was configured?
Thanks & regards,
Rhys
I'm about to order the materials for the interior of my '56 Capri.
The existing interior is is in good condition - but incorrect and the subject of a much earlier renovation.
The Hull card says it was supplied with the typical (for its era) Special Flame Carpenter. I wish to return it to its original state.
I have searched....and searched earlier posts.
Question 1)
Appreciate that the dash and crash pad are supposed to be in Black Alligator. In how many pieces or sections, is correct for the dash pad material?
Question 2)
Is the diagram below (of the front seat) an accurate representation of how the interior was configured?
Thanks & regards,
Rhys
- Brian Robinson
- Posts: 777
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:49 pm
- Location: Southern California
- Contact:
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Good diagram, very helpful.
I believe there should be white piping (off white, I use a color called Adobe) between the carpenter squares and plain top section. Other than that it looks good. Cushions are two inches thick, welt to welt. Remember the squares are flat, not puffy.
Crash pad is four pieces, two side to side covering the radiuses, and two straight fore and aft.
Here is the right material
I believe there should be white piping (off white, I use a color called Adobe) between the carpenter squares and plain top section. Other than that it looks good. Cushions are two inches thick, welt to welt. Remember the squares are flat, not puffy.
Crash pad is four pieces, two side to side covering the radiuses, and two straight fore and aft.
Here is the right material
-Brian
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
- rhysaccess
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:16 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Thanks Brian,
I appreciate your experience & research..
Have the Special Flame sample from an earlier post of yours. The suggested vinyl supplier (SMS?) says they can make it, or something pretty similar.
Is the revised picture closer? (White/cream piping on the "carpenter" squares, and cushions a little closer to correct proportions)
Regards,
Rhys
I appreciate your experience & research..
Have the Special Flame sample from an earlier post of yours. The suggested vinyl supplier (SMS?) says they can make it, or something pretty similar.
Is the revised picture closer? (White/cream piping on the "carpenter" squares, and cushions a little closer to correct proportions)
Regards,
Rhys
- Brian Robinson
- Posts: 777
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:49 pm
- Location: Southern California
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Sorry, I meant add just the line separating the squares and top section of the seat back fronts, not each individual square. Add one horizontal welt line.
Also there is a flat section on the bottom edge of the seat backs about five inches wide that covers s transition between the back and spring base that leaves just enough room for the cushions to tuck under. This is covered in black. This doesn't show when the loose cushions are in place.
Also there is a flat section on the bottom edge of the seat backs about five inches wide that covers s transition between the back and spring base that leaves just enough room for the cushions to tuck under. This is covered in black. This doesn't show when the loose cushions are in place.
-Brian
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
- rhysaccess
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:16 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Thanks again Brian,
Very helpful.
The carpenter squares seem totally flat - just dress stitching of the vinyl without a spot of foam or padding.
So - last modification to the drawing perhaps (I'll use this to illustrate my requirements to the trimmer)
I added a side profile (with exaggerated proportions), to show the location of the cushions and indicate the curvature of the higher part of the backrest.
Cheers,
Rhys
Very helpful.
The carpenter squares seem totally flat - just dress stitching of the vinyl without a spot of foam or padding.
So - last modification to the drawing perhaps (I'll use this to illustrate my requirements to the trimmer)
I added a side profile (with exaggerated proportions), to show the location of the cushions and indicate the curvature of the higher part of the backrest.
Cheers,
Rhys
- Brian Robinson
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- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:49 pm
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Getting closer...
The face of the seat backs does not bulge at the top like you have shown, it is on a flat plane with the squares. The squares are what is called a "biscuit stitch" which the thread does not show on the face and falsely appears to be individual stitched squares on the face.
The back of the front seat back wood steps out 1" at the top and there is no padding on the back. It steps out the same amount the seat back supports fit in. Also, all the edges are essentially square (and have welt like your diagram shows).
The black seat bases are squared off too with black welt, and the crash pad has black welt underneath. All of the welting is usually as small as the upholsterer can possibly make it (about 1/8"). Black alligator is used in the side pockets as well. Paul Cundiff at Woodies Restorations is making the correct black alligator now too.
Here is an original late '55 Capri seat from a 19-footer that is exactly the same as yours except for the colors and uses all white welting like the '56s (the early '55s had gold welting on the backs). Interestingly, Chris-Craft was using latex foam in the backs by this time and a mix of tacks and T-5 staples (obviously a transition period).
The face of the seat backs does not bulge at the top like you have shown, it is on a flat plane with the squares. The squares are what is called a "biscuit stitch" which the thread does not show on the face and falsely appears to be individual stitched squares on the face.
The back of the front seat back wood steps out 1" at the top and there is no padding on the back. It steps out the same amount the seat back supports fit in. Also, all the edges are essentially square (and have welt like your diagram shows).
The black seat bases are squared off too with black welt, and the crash pad has black welt underneath. All of the welting is usually as small as the upholsterer can possibly make it (about 1/8"). Black alligator is used in the side pockets as well. Paul Cundiff at Woodies Restorations is making the correct black alligator now too.
Here is an original late '55 Capri seat from a 19-footer that is exactly the same as yours except for the colors and uses all white welting like the '56s (the early '55s had gold welting on the backs). Interestingly, Chris-Craft was using latex foam in the backs by this time and a mix of tacks and T-5 staples (obviously a transition period).
-Brian
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
- rhysaccess
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:16 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Ahh......yes. The seat back shape is now evident. The current shape of my seats (and many of my file photos of renovated boats) had me assuming the wrong thing there.
Great photo.
[quotePaul Cundiff at Woodies Restorations is making the correct black alligator now too.][/quote]
As a result of internet searches, it had seemed that the Black Alligator vinyl could be sourced from several locations. Are there versions of this material - that are less authentic, than what Paul is making?
Again, thanks for all your advice & patience.
Regards,
Rhys
Great photo.
[quotePaul Cundiff at Woodies Restorations is making the correct black alligator now too.][/quote]
As a result of internet searches, it had seemed that the Black Alligator vinyl could be sourced from several locations. Are there versions of this material - that are less authentic, than what Paul is making?
Again, thanks for all your advice & patience.
Regards,
Rhys
- Brian Robinson
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- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:49 pm
- Location: Southern California
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
There are are three black alligator materials I would consider:
Paul Cundiff's is the closest to original, but is the most expensive and yardage comes on a 48" roll instead of the standard 54", and timing is always questionable.
Classic Boat Connection's is good, is a tad thick and glossy compared to original.
Keyston Bros. "Wild Croc" is the coolest looking of all, least money, and every upholsterer has it in there books (even in AUS?) but not as correct as Paul's. It is more 3-dimentional.
Some also use Keyston "Nile Croc" but I think the others are better options.
Paul Cundiff's is the closest to original, but is the most expensive and yardage comes on a 48" roll instead of the standard 54", and timing is always questionable.
Classic Boat Connection's is good, is a tad thick and glossy compared to original.
Keyston Bros. "Wild Croc" is the coolest looking of all, least money, and every upholsterer has it in there books (even in AUS?) but not as correct as Paul's. It is more 3-dimentional.
Some also use Keyston "Nile Croc" but I think the others are better options.
-Brian
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Rhys,
I have a 19 capri in the shop now. It still has its original carpenter interior. When you cut them open the color is more red then pink. Also the throwable seat bottom cushions are foam. I'll try and post some pictures this week and I'll send you a PM for an email address that I can send pictures to. If you can post your hull number and we can see how far apart these to hulls are.
Brains picture of the correct material is correct. But the color has faded.
I have a 19 capri in the shop now. It still has its original carpenter interior. When you cut them open the color is more red then pink. Also the throwable seat bottom cushions are foam. I'll try and post some pictures this week and I'll send you a PM for an email address that I can send pictures to. If you can post your hull number and we can see how far apart these to hulls are.
Brains picture of the correct material is correct. But the color has faded.
- rhysaccess
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:16 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Hi Jim,
I'd really appreciate that.
Cheers,
Rhys
I'd really appreciate that.
Cheers,
Rhys
- Brian Robinson
- Posts: 777
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:49 pm
- Location: Southern California
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Jim,
If you have an extra sample to spare I would appreciate it. All I could find on a 21' we worked on a few years ago was very small remnants on on the tack line. My address is in the big book.
The foam loose cushions are a funny thing... I have seen original kapok cushions as late as 1959 in some models, and original foam cushions as early as 1956 in other models. It seems Chris-Craft wasn't sure which was best during those three years, unless Algonac did them one way, and Cadillac and Caruthersville etc. another way?
If you have an extra sample to spare I would appreciate it. All I could find on a 21' we worked on a few years ago was very small remnants on on the tack line. My address is in the big book.
The foam loose cushions are a funny thing... I have seen original kapok cushions as late as 1959 in some models, and original foam cushions as early as 1956 in other models. It seems Chris-Craft wasn't sure which was best during those three years, unless Algonac did them one way, and Cadillac and Caruthersville etc. another way?
-Brian
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Brain,
I have seen the same thing. I worked on a 1961 caviler that had original interior and it had kapok. The upholstery is torn on several cushions. The foam is green and they are clearly marked for the 19' foot model one even has 21 crossed through and 19 written under it.
I will get pictures this week.
I will get you a sample if I can. I'm not sure if the owner is ready to replace it yet.
I have seen the same thing. I worked on a 1961 caviler that had original interior and it had kapok. The upholstery is torn on several cushions. The foam is green and they are clearly marked for the 19' foot model one even has 21 crossed through and 19 written under it.
I will get pictures this week.
I will get you a sample if I can. I'm not sure if the owner is ready to replace it yet.
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Sorry its taken so long to get the pictures posted. 2 things I noticed when taking the pictures. Chris Craft must of had different suppliers for the vinyl. One of the pictures shows a torn scrap for another cushion in the boat. The cushion its laying on has a rougher texture and you can see the detail more clearly. Also the back of the rougher material is white and the back of the other is red. The straps all seem to be made from the rougher material. The colors also seem to be slightly different between the two.
- rhysaccess
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- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:16 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Hi Jim,
Thanks for this considerable effort on your part.
The guess work is now removed - and I can now create the correct interior. No doubt many others will likewise benefit in future post searches.
Thanks & regards,
Rhys
Thanks for this considerable effort on your part.
The guess work is now removed - and I can now create the correct interior. No doubt many others will likewise benefit in future post searches.
Thanks & regards,
Rhys
- Brian Robinson
- Posts: 777
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:49 pm
- Location: Southern California
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Thanks Jim! The perforated cushion perimeter is neat to see.
-Brian
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Brain,
Read the tag on the cushion. Its the material inside is foam. So if Chris Craft was going back and forth on fill material they would have to have different tags for the different fill materials.
The perforated sides makes sense with it being a foam cushion.
Read the tag on the cushion. Its the material inside is foam. So if Chris Craft was going back and forth on fill material they would have to have different tags for the different fill materials.
The perforated sides makes sense with it being a foam cushion.
- Brian Robinson
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- Location: Southern California
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Here is a Mint Green 1957 19' Capri cushion that were kapok in this case and had the perforated sides. In one of the late 1950s parts books it shows replacement cushions like this, kapok with the perforated sides. You are right, the tag will tell (when you can read them).
-Brian
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
- rhysaccess
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:16 pm
- Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
I may have used up my quota of questions.........but I'll take the risk of social isolation.
It appears that the cushion in the photo has a strap (or handle) an inch or so wide.
Does this mean that each cushion has such a strap, and that is underneath the cushion, located in the middle?
Cheers,
Rhys
It appears that the cushion in the photo has a strap (or handle) an inch or so wide.
Does this mean that each cushion has such a strap, and that is underneath the cushion, located in the middle?
Cheers,
Rhys
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Each cushion has 2 straps. They are located to each side.
- rhysaccess
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Thanks Jim,
In the absence of readily available cushion labels or tags - I'll get some made up for my boat.
The attachment below demonstrates the words I can make out off the label.....can anyone fill in the missing or incorrect bits?
(The attachment is a rough draft before I fine tune the font, size and spacing of layout)
Regards,
Rhys
In the absence of readily available cushion labels or tags - I'll get some made up for my boat.
The attachment below demonstrates the words I can make out off the label.....can anyone fill in the missing or incorrect bits?
(The attachment is a rough draft before I fine tune the font, size and spacing of layout)
Regards,
Rhys
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Here are some pictures of all the tags.
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- rhysaccess
- Posts: 62
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Thanks again Jim (1000 times over)
Those last images were enough to fill in the blank spots.
I'll get some cushion labels made from that information.
(Had seen that post through an earlier search Tom - cheers)
Regards,
Rhys
Those last images were enough to fill in the blank spots.
I'll get some cushion labels made from that information.
(Had seen that post through an earlier search Tom - cheers)
Regards,
Rhys
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Just curious, does anyone have any concerns about making reproduction Coast Guard approval tags and sewing them on reproduction cushions? It seems that the Coast Guard might get sensitive to that sort of thing.
Steve A
1956 18' Chris-Craft Continental
1956 18' Chris-Craft Continental
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
I would thing that as long as you have the correct quantity of currently approved preservers (PFD's) on board that the Coast Guard wouldn't object to the reproduction cushions with those labels (if they were to see them).
Al
Member - Executive Team
Member - Executive Team
- rhysaccess
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
I confess that the sensitivity of the US Coast Guard had not figured highly in my thoughts. It may be that I have triggered an international incident?
Regards,
Rhys
Regards,
Rhys
Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
ClassOf56 wrote:Just curious, does anyone have any concerns about making reproduction Coast Guard approval tags and sewing them on reproduction cushions? It seems that the Coast Guard might get sensitive to that sort of thing.
The coast guard doesn't patrol inland lakes. Most are patrol by local and state authorities. Great Lakes excluded.
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Re: Is this what Special Flame Carpenter looks like?
Probably a moot point inasmuch as these (original or repro) do not currently qualify as an accepted PFD and would be disregarded as far as meeting equipment requirements if inspected.
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.
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