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Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
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- steve bunda
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Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Hi , I am researching the interior upholstery for my 1939 barrel , and have read all the previous posts . I have a Chris Craft Master parts list for the early 30's , but wish to get a copy of later 1936 to 42 or so.
My interest is in the Leather vs Russialoid materials. I have a number of prewar runabouts and all their hull cards are specific to Leather or Russoloid being installed. I cannot wrap my head around the the theory of boats being produced with both materials being installed in the same hull. Picture pocket of 39 barrel.
My interest is in the Leather vs Russialoid materials. I have a number of prewar runabouts and all their hull cards are specific to Leather or Russoloid being installed. I cannot wrap my head around the the theory of boats being produced with both materials being installed in the same hull. Picture pocket of 39 barrel.
Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
steve, i am not the expert here but consider this. the upholstered items come presumably from the upholstery shop, ready to plop in. the battery tie down strap, the map pocket lining, and the slings holding up the wiring, etc. are done in the course of boat construction.
A question in my mind is whether the band on the seat bottoms where the general upholstery is leather might be russaloid. Brian seems to think so.
knowing how frugal cc was, i wouldn't be surprised about them using russaloid scraps wherever possible.
A question in my mind is whether the band on the seat bottoms where the general upholstery is leather might be russaloid. Brian seems to think so.
knowing how frugal cc was, i wouldn't be surprised about them using russaloid scraps wherever possible.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"
- steve bunda
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
My thinking is the barrel backs were just the new runabouts offered in 1939, and were not such a big deal as they became later on for collectors. Thus an offering of a new affordable runabout with Russialoid upholstery , and a upgrade offering of leather.
I could not imagine a customer picking up a custom ordered leather interior with a mix of Russialoid, but it is possible. Most of the time the wire straps in prewar boats do dot match the hull card color of the interior.
My next question is , In the factory pictures of prewar runabouts, why do some lazy backs have 3 panels, and some appear to be a complete seamless panel? I have made them 3 panel in the past, except for 3rd cockpits.
I could not imagine a customer picking up a custom ordered leather interior with a mix of Russialoid, but it is possible. Most of the time the wire straps in prewar boats do dot match the hull card color of the interior.
My next question is , In the factory pictures of prewar runabouts, why do some lazy backs have 3 panels, and some appear to be a complete seamless panel? I have made them 3 panel in the past, except for 3rd cockpits.
Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
My sense is some of the earlier 1930's runabouts may have had a solid one piece of upholstery seat back? but i think by the mid 30's they were 3 pieces of upholstery material sewn together, with the possible exception of the small entry level models? Don't know for sure. Perhaps it is dangerous to overgeneralize on this.
There are two aspects to your comments on the barrel backs. on the one hand, these were not for the average joe. at $1,500 or so these went to the local banker, lawyer, physician, successful business man, not everyday working people. this was the price of an expensive, luxury car or in some cases a working man's house. On the other hand, I don't think people were in general accustomed to the level of luxury that you might expect in a current mercedes or whatever. There was black rubber for the flooring, pretty basic instrumentation, etc. even in the top of the line boats. Pretty spartan in a way.
I guess all of this leads me to conclude you really need to look at the evidence model by model to determine what was done.
There are two aspects to your comments on the barrel backs. on the one hand, these were not for the average joe. at $1,500 or so these went to the local banker, lawyer, physician, successful business man, not everyday working people. this was the price of an expensive, luxury car or in some cases a working man's house. On the other hand, I don't think people were in general accustomed to the level of luxury that you might expect in a current mercedes or whatever. There was black rubber for the flooring, pretty basic instrumentation, etc. even in the top of the line boats. Pretty spartan in a way.
I guess all of this leads me to conclude you really need to look at the evidence model by model to determine what was done.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
1940-41 Material Specs for 23 and 27 custom both call for a mix of genuine and imitation leather. 27 calls for significantly more suggesting that the upholstered ceilings may have been covered with it. We found the storage pocket liners in a very original 23 to be imitation.
I would speculate that if Chris Craft was willing to put imitation in their top of the line then the lesser examples would be treated no better.
I suspect there were multiple issues including cost, workability, and perhaps durability/resistance to moisture that might have contributed.
Steve, the liner material in your posted pic has the look of imitation looking at the weave pattern.
I would speculate that if Chris Craft was willing to put imitation in their top of the line then the lesser examples would be treated no better.
I suspect there were multiple issues including cost, workability, and perhaps durability/resistance to moisture that might have contributed.
Steve, the liner material in your posted pic has the look of imitation looking at the weave pattern.
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.
- steve bunda
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Thanks Greg , I do not have the hull card for my 1939 , and only have the pocket material to go by. My thoughts are to upholster the boat completely with the Russialoid. Paul is making up the new Burgundy material for me. \
Any one have original interior pictures of 1939 barrel that could show a pattern in the material? Man made of leather?
steve
Any one have original interior pictures of 1939 barrel that could show a pattern in the material? Man made of leather?
steve
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
I think the 19's had leather as standard unless ordered special. You might want to check around.. the maroon leather and vinyl might be out there already. I think it was called Spanish maroon but I'm not sure. Someone will chime in and confirm I'm sure.
I always felt the 19s best epitomized the torpedo design and were proportionately the best looking of the barrels.
I always felt the 19s best epitomized the torpedo design and were proportionately the best looking of the barrels.
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.
Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Steve, somehow my recent reply didnt seem to make it into this thread. Lost in cyberspace?
In any event, what i said was that, as greg notes, I believe the 19 custom came standard in leather.
when i restored my 38 17 foot, it had originally used spanish grain maroon russaloid like your pocket picture. since no russaloid materials were then available, i used MBBW cc pre-war dark red leather. Very similar in look, but is a much richer material than russaloid. I gather some are now reproducing a russaloid like material but I havent seen any. Leather is much nicer; more expensive and perhaps wont wear as well, but if one is going to all this trouble, a few thousand more for leather isnt that big a deal in the scheme of things.
Those are my thoughts for what it is worth.
In any event, what i said was that, as greg notes, I believe the 19 custom came standard in leather.
when i restored my 38 17 foot, it had originally used spanish grain maroon russaloid like your pocket picture. since no russaloid materials were then available, i used MBBW cc pre-war dark red leather. Very similar in look, but is a much richer material than russaloid. I gather some are now reproducing a russaloid like material but I havent seen any. Leather is much nicer; more expensive and perhaps wont wear as well, but if one is going to all this trouble, a few thousand more for leather isnt that big a deal in the scheme of things.
Those are my thoughts for what it is worth.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"
- steve bunda
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
I am ok with putting in leather, but just want to see some proof that it was the standard material. You could get a 19 footer with a K engine to save cost in a barrel back. Would also like to see some pictures and reports from other restorers and or boat owners. Maybe some factory info would be nice . I have checked all the usual sites .
thanks, steve
thanks, steve
Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Steve, please check out the archives here. there are typically catalogues for the various models going back into the 30's and they list the standard equipment. Yes, i believe the K was the standard engine (although i think most came with a larger M engine.) I dont believe i have ever heard of one coming with russaloid, although it is possible. Did you check out Don Ayers barrelback.com web site that has picture and other information. There is info around. good luck.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Factory literature from the day indicates "Leather" as standard for this model.
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.
- maritimeclassics
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
I posted this to the other thread. This is the 23' Barrel Back but it does show that a little imitation leather was used in 40 and 4. Also the hydem was imitation leather. I went through all I have for 39-42 and this is the only thing that I have. I'm almost positive your boat came with imitation leather in the pockets and the hydem. That's the way I would do it if I had it in my shop.
Family member of Chris Craft founder
Owner of Maritime Classics
http://www.maritimeclassics.com
Ph# 231-486-6148
Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
Owner of Maritime Classics
http://www.maritimeclassics.com
Ph# 231-486-6148
Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
- steve bunda
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Looks good, I would love to see the same factory information on the 19 foot barrels , all years . I just want to have documentation in the portfolio to back up the interior choice. Does any one have a build sheet for a 1939 19 foot barrel that they can post? I would like to see a few of them.
Thanks , steve
Thanks , steve
- Brian Robinson
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Steve,
The O'Mara pages for the 1941-42 19' show the same thing as Mike Green posted. Unfortunately we do not have these prior to 1941, with exception of the 1940 16' SRB and 27' Custom (both show the same info regarding the upholstery). I have been through all of the hull cards of all 146 1939 19-footers and all but six state "leather maroon" or "maroon leather." #48643 had its complete original interior carefully disassembled a few years ago showing what was actually leather and what was not (side pockets, welt, base, cushion straps I think...)
The O'Mara pages for the 1941-42 19' show the same thing as Mike Green posted. Unfortunately we do not have these prior to 1941, with exception of the 1940 16' SRB and 27' Custom (both show the same info regarding the upholstery). I have been through all of the hull cards of all 146 1939 19-footers and all but six state "leather maroon" or "maroon leather." #48643 had its complete original interior carefully disassembled a few years ago showing what was actually leather and what was not (side pockets, welt, base, cushion straps I think...)
-Brian
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
1923 Hackercraft 23' Dolphin #03
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256 Empress
1952 Chris~Craft 19' Racing Runabout #363 Thunderstruck
Robinson Restoration, LLC (760) 468-1009
Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
I couldnt find any leather on my 39 so I had Paul make up some yinyl to match what came out of my 39
- Don Danenberg
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Ya Think?
- maritimeclassics
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Again, I don't get it??? Do you have something to add to help, because we are all here to learn.Don Danenberg wrote:Ya Think?
Family member of Chris Craft founder
Owner of Maritime Classics
http://www.maritimeclassics.com
Ph# 231-486-6148
Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
Owner of Maritime Classics
http://www.maritimeclassics.com
Ph# 231-486-6148
Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
- Ed Andrews
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
it looks like someone hacked his account.maritimeclassics wrote:Again, I don't get it??? Do you have something to add to help, because we are all here to learn.Don Danenberg wrote:Ya Think?
1951 Chris Craft Holiday
1952 12' Kit Boat w/Johnson 15HP engine
1953 Chris Craft Commander 10HP Outboard
1952 12' Kit Boat w/Johnson 15HP engine
1953 Chris Craft Commander 10HP Outboard
- Don Danenberg
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
#48547 showed GEN leather (as in Genuine) on the hull card, the first one.
- maritimeclassics
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Good information, so before hull #48547 and prior (48500-48547) they were all Russaloid material. Don, have you found after hull #48547 the use of any other material other then leather in the the pockets, seat bases or hydem?
Family member of Chris Craft founder
Owner of Maritime Classics
http://www.maritimeclassics.com
Ph# 231-486-6148
Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
Owner of Maritime Classics
http://www.maritimeclassics.com
Ph# 231-486-6148
Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Fascinating, Don. What was the upholstery type noted on the 47 hulls previous to 48547?
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.
- Don Danenberg
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Well Mike,
I don't know that they "were all Russaloid material"? Although, the ceiling pockets were different than all the rest?
As I believe I showed you a couple years ago, my #48510 was completely upholstered with "US Rubber - Naugahyde" (patented in 1936 and referred to by Chris-Craft as "Im. Leather"). I had 3, old-time, tack-spitting, upholsterers disassemble sections of it. None found any other tack holes besides those marked and removed. Steel where hidden, copper where left exposed on seat-back and seat-bottom edges. I have many photos and even one video of their work.
Prior to #48547, the hull cards noted; 'Spanich Moron', perhaps that guy just couldn't spell?
I don't know that they "were all Russaloid material"? Although, the ceiling pockets were different than all the rest?
As I believe I showed you a couple years ago, my #48510 was completely upholstered with "US Rubber - Naugahyde" (patented in 1936 and referred to by Chris-Craft as "Im. Leather"). I had 3, old-time, tack-spitting, upholsterers disassemble sections of it. None found any other tack holes besides those marked and removed. Steel where hidden, copper where left exposed on seat-back and seat-bottom edges. I have many photos and even one video of their work.
Prior to #48547, the hull cards noted; 'Spanich Moron', perhaps that guy just couldn't spell?
Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Who needs unpleasantness coupled with unhelpfulness?
Steve, If you go to the archives and search 1939 Chris-Craft Full Line Brochure, there is a table that shows the default options for the various models. As to seating, the 19' custom indicates leather. Some other models use the period term "leatherette." This is not to say that there are no 19' customs that had "leatherette", but only by reviewing the hull card or original upholstery, if still there, would one know for sure as to any particular boat.
If there is other actual evidence out there that contradicts this brochure in general, it would be helpful if it were shared with the members.
Steve, If you go to the archives and search 1939 Chris-Craft Full Line Brochure, there is a table that shows the default options for the various models. As to seating, the 19' custom indicates leather. Some other models use the period term "leatherette." This is not to say that there are no 19' customs that had "leatherette", but only by reviewing the hull card or original upholstery, if still there, would one know for sure as to any particular boat.
If there is other actual evidence out there that contradicts this brochure in general, it would be helpful if it were shared with the members.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"
- steve bunda
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
I have searched this site and find it cumbersome , Don V. if you could take the time and bring the information forward to the string , I would appreciate it .
steve
steve
Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
unfortunately, steve, it is cumbersome, and that is why it is being revamped. I wish I knew how to bring the page up and post it. If someone else can do it that would be great. There is really a wealth of info in the archives. One of the many problems is that there is no way to separate all the brass bell material, from original cc material, when one does a search (at least that i know of.)
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"
- steve bunda
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
I understand, but to keep the flow of information and to have a conversation in real time, sending people to a archive is not helpful at all. I cannot find what I am looking for in the archive and will not use it anymore, thus to keep strings alive, lets quit sending people there, and just post things to the discussion we can see. My 2 cents.
steve
steve
- Don Danenberg
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
So really,
Don Vogt,
You demand all the answers that do not exist?
Don Vogt,
You demand all the answers that do not exist?
- Don Danenberg
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Re: Prewar master parts 1936 t0 42
Look,
I wasn't there 79-years ago, but not many who post here were?
All I can really report is that #48510 had its upholstery disassembled by professional upholsterers, 2 of the 3 now retired, and no other tack holes found? All Remnants show "US Rubber - Naugahyde", patented in 1936. No evidence of Genuine Leather, not even the hull card. The hull card, by the way, is not the BSO "Boat Shipping Order", and is not even a build sheet order, it is basically a 'check-out' sheet, dated with the delivery date and destination.
The following is NOT for the 19-barrelback (the only "Materials Specifications" report, signed by O'Mara, we have for the 19-barrelback is dated 12-8-40, and only applies to the bull-nosed, fold-down-windshield, Aqua-Marine Leather, model, '41-'42).
This is for the 1942, 17', "Special Runabout". This page shows what was 'specified' for this model, and only part of the Upholstering section, page 37 (pages 17 to 39 available).
It calls for "Im. Leather", Maroon Spanish, #M270, #20/20, #6000, size 50", 7-1/4 yards.
Note that it also calls for MOSS (as in Spanish Moss) for padding, not the "horse-hair" we have seen written about lately. If you have some original padding, spread it out and look closely, if it 'branches' it is Moss, not horsehair.
Note also that it calls for both Copper and Steel tacks.
I spent 5-days (three different trips) looking at the micro-film reels at the MM, CC archives and maybe saw 15% of the reels. Somebody needs to spend more time there to find the rest of the "Materials Specifications" reports that Joe Morrison says he turned over to the MM in 1986.
I wasn't there 79-years ago, but not many who post here were?
All I can really report is that #48510 had its upholstery disassembled by professional upholsterers, 2 of the 3 now retired, and no other tack holes found? All Remnants show "US Rubber - Naugahyde", patented in 1936. No evidence of Genuine Leather, not even the hull card. The hull card, by the way, is not the BSO "Boat Shipping Order", and is not even a build sheet order, it is basically a 'check-out' sheet, dated with the delivery date and destination.
The following is NOT for the 19-barrelback (the only "Materials Specifications" report, signed by O'Mara, we have for the 19-barrelback is dated 12-8-40, and only applies to the bull-nosed, fold-down-windshield, Aqua-Marine Leather, model, '41-'42).
This is for the 1942, 17', "Special Runabout". This page shows what was 'specified' for this model, and only part of the Upholstering section, page 37 (pages 17 to 39 available).
It calls for "Im. Leather", Maroon Spanish, #M270, #20/20, #6000, size 50", 7-1/4 yards.
Note that it also calls for MOSS (as in Spanish Moss) for padding, not the "horse-hair" we have seen written about lately. If you have some original padding, spread it out and look closely, if it 'branches' it is Moss, not horsehair.
Note also that it calls for both Copper and Steel tacks.
I spent 5-days (three different trips) looking at the micro-film reels at the MM, CC archives and maybe saw 15% of the reels. Somebody needs to spend more time there to find the rest of the "Materials Specifications" reports that Joe Morrison says he turned over to the MM in 1986.
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