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Hull Construction- wood type

Framing, planking and fairing. Repair, or reconstruction. If it's hull related, you'll find it here.

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jnbailey71
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Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:10 am

I am peeling the skins off my Cavalier and replacing. As I come across other structural members I am replacing them as well. My question is- what kind of wood do I use? I was previously told white oak for interior pieces but I assume that isn't the same for structural pieces? What kind of wood should I use to replace the stringers? The top support for the transom? Top side bow starboard board? Is it Fir for the structural pieces?

2nd question- any advice on how careful I need to be removing structural pieces? Should I add bracing anywhere?

Here are some pictures of where I'm at.
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IMG_4795.JPG
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Josh Bailey
1958 15' Chris-Craft Cavalier Utility K95

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jbyers » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:34 pm

I wish I knew........ I'll be following your progress with interest since I really should have done this to mine before I undertook all the patching and painting. I remember your boat being in pretty good shape. What motivated you for the complete re-do?

Good luck. It should look great when you finish.

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:37 pm

Hey Jerry!

I am just too much of a perfectionist I guess! I had pretty bad damage on the starboard side, transom was a mess, port side was rotting by the transom and rotting stringers. so I just went for all of it so it will last my lifetime.

Only stuff that won't be replaced is the bottom and most of the framework.

Pretty daunting having it in this shape but I'm excited to put new wood on her. I had stain made to match the original so real excited to see how that looks.

I'll post more pictures as I have them. Here she is after today.
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Josh Bailey
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jbyers » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:54 pm

Looking good......... so was your bottom fiberglassed at the factory? Are you going to go back with fiberglass?

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:58 pm

Yes- factory fiberglass and yes going to replace with resin over mesh like they did at the factory. Probably the main reason I still have a solid bottom, the condition of the wood underneath is unbelievable.
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jbyers » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:36 pm

That's great....... I hear a lot of people warn against the fiberglass on the bottom but I assume they are referring to adding it later when you might trap moisture in some rotted areas...........

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:14 pm

Definitely not a good idea on a planked bottom...
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by joanroy » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:24 am

If you put a sander to the frame pieces your replacing and get down to bare wood, you should be able to determine wood species by tone and grain. I suspect white oak frame and fir stringers. I'd do some cross bracing at this point, flip her over and address the bottom issues.

Interesting to see how lightly CC framed their 50's plywood sided boats. That were relying on the strength of the plywood and glassed over bottom to give them the structural integrity the needed. Quite a revolutionary building method in its day and obviously successful and still used by some builders today. Good Luck!

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jim g » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:52 am

All the framework will be mahogany. The stringers are fir.

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by mbigpops » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:01 am

Josh,

You have to decide if you want to stay with original wood species or deviate.

You could go with white oak for the replacement frames instead of mahogany. Just know that white oak has superior rot resistance but also is heavier, harder to work with, and may be hard to find in your geographic area.

If you do use white oak then keep track of where it is located in the boat as you may have to adjust the size of your screw counterbores to account for the harder wood or you may strip a bunch of screw heads.

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jfrprops » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:20 am

and if you go with fir....IMHO the fir we see/get today is very inferior compared to back in the day....pick it carefully. Much of it has been cut at the wrong time of year and while it was yet immature......

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
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1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:51 am

Thank you all for the input.

I'm thinking I'll use mahogany for the structural pieces.

John- if Fir is risky- what is a safer option. I don't want to replace stringers again.
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jfrprops » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:04 am

just look for nice close grained fir

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jim g » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:55 am

You want vertical grain Douglas Fir from Condon Lumber.

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:09 pm

Thanks for the suggestions Jim- it looks like Condon also has the type of plywood I have been looking for. So far I've only been able to find Occume.... and they deliver!
Josh Bailey
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by robertpaul » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:09 pm

It is hard to tell from the pics, BUT..... why are you replacing the stringers? They don't look compromised to me nor do the frames at the points the stringers where attached to them. That is where I would expect there to be rot. You have them in your hands (which is why it was important to remove and inspect) so you will have seen what I cannot from the pictures posted so far. I only raise this because when inspecting our 1937, 35' cruiser with the bottom off, the stringers were perfect. Many frames were not, but the stringers are the part of the structure with the best air circulation around them. If you only have a few localized problems, I would think seriously about cutting out the rot and scarfing in new material. If they really do need to be replaced, I would consider laminating some new ones to overcome some of the shortcomings of currently available stock..... unless you have a good supplier.
1937 35' Double Stateroom Enclosed Cruiser

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jim g » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:10 pm

jnbailey71 wrote:Thanks for the suggestions Jim- it looks like Condon also has the type of plywood I have been looking for. So far I've only been able to find Occume.... and they deliver!
Do not use their Philippine Mahogany plywood. If its still the same as it was 15 years ago. The inner plys are junk wood and will rot at the hint of moisture.

I would try World Panel Products. They have a Sappele ribbon stripe veneer plywood. It comes in 4X10 sheets. You want the one that has the thicker outside veneer. It around a 1/16th of an inch thick. Which is what the veneer on the original Chris Craft plywood was.

The real thin 0.6mm outer veneers do not stain out very well. Especially if you have to do any sanding.

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jbyers » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:19 pm

Josh........ everyone always wants to see more pictures. I am especially interested in your progress since this is the exact make and model of my boat.

I have a novel idea. One that could be used by many of the members undertaking extensive projects........

A BOAT Cam !!!!!

What do you think? You could set up a link to the boat cam and everyone can watch the progress.

Personally I think it's a good idea, but it's not my call............. :mrgreen:

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:43 pm

Jerry- I will look into it, I like your idea and it would be great documentation for the memories. Antique Boat Center has this in their shop 24-7, pretty cool to check in on what they are working on!
Josh Bailey
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jim g » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:57 pm

jnbailey71 wrote:Jerry- I will look into it, I like your idea and it would be great documentation for the memories. Antique Boat Center has this in their shop 24-7, pretty cool to check in on what they are working on!

Until your seen scratching your butt or picking your nose. :mrgreen:

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:30 pm

HA! Honestly my main concern... how soon will i forget that I'm on live stream!!!
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:33 am

Should I coat the stringers and plywood I am replacing with CPES. What about the mahogany pieces I'm using for the frame pieces?

How will this change the color of the stain I use? What integrity does it add to the marine specific okoume plywood sheets I am using?
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by joanroy » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:42 am

On stained areas that are to be varnished, I would not seal with epoxy. I'd just stain, seal and varnish with traditional products.

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jfrprops » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:56 pm

like joanroy said.

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by DennyDowning » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:35 am

I had to replace a stringer in my 1929 Cadet. My understanding is that Quarter Sawn Sitka Spruce was used. It was difficult to find a piece 20' long 2" thick and 12" wide but I did find a piece from a ship builder on the East Coast. Probably not a lot of difference in Fir as they are both a softwood but the real key is that it be Quarter Sawn. When looking for the piece of lumber first look at the end of the board. On the end you should see that the grain, growth layers, run parallel, not perpendicular, to the width of the board. They should run straight up and down to the 12" width - so 12" long and parallel. Then you look along the long, 2", edge of the board. The grain should stay parallel for the length of the board and not running out toward the side. The grain again should be as close, straight, as possible to running the entire length of the board. Those are the features you get with a quarter sawn piece. You might be able to find a piece of fir to work but inspect the grain this way. Hope that helps. As far as using white oak, never red oak, I get concerned about the moisture content of the wood. I always used "Air Dried" White Oak as it still has sufficient moisture content. Kiln dried White Oak, in my opinion is for furniture, is not suitable for use on a boat. Wood boats soak up water - I don't care how much epoxy you put on. Wood that is kiln dried will just absorb more water and likely will not last as long. All epoxy does is make it dam near impossible for the water to escape back out of the wood which increases rot. Well, that is another discussion. I do prepaint replacement pieces with a good oil based paint. Paint will still breathe, let water in and out, and it creates a good surface for bedding. Without paint the oil from the bedding is just absorbed into the wood and becomes chalky dry.

As far as the plywood is concerned. Again, I am an old school kind of guy. I would not recommend epoxy coating anything on your boat. All epoxy will do is trap the water inside the wood. I know that most think it makes the wood resistant to water but these are wood boats and they are going to absorb water. Ever hear of a fiberglass transom fail because the wood inside rotted. Ask yourself how that could happen to wood that is encased in thick fiberglass. Trust me the water gets in but can not get back out. Particularly bad for boats in freezing climates. You know what happens to water when it freezes. The grain is destroyed by expanding, freezing, water trapped in epoxy. Use a good paint and do a good job bedding the plywood to the frames. How long did that plywood last the first time without epoxy? Wood is wood and should be, again in my old school opinion, treated like wood.

Denny

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:31 pm

Thank you everyone for your information on this topic!

Denny- thanks so much for all your detail, it really helped this past weekend at Homestead Hardwoods. If any of you are within driving distance of Vickery, Ohio, this place is worth the trip. I found the wood I needed for the stringers and the plywood I need to complete the majority of my boat.

Here are some pictures of our trip to Homestead hardwoods and progress update on the boat.

The guy who owns this outfit built a "field of dreams" MLB size ball diamond in his backyard and the picture doesn't do it justice.

Enjoy!
Attachments
boat2.jpg
Stringers done- ready for varnish then installation
boat1.jpg
Fitting the new stringers
wood4.jpg
Field of Dreams
wood3.jpg
Sorting out our plywood
wood2.jpg
Fir after planing
wood1.jpg
16' Douglas Fir 2x8
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jim g » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:08 pm

jnbailey71 wrote:Thank you everyone for your information on this topic!

Denny- thanks so much for all your detail, it really helped this past weekend at Homestead Hardwoods. If any of you are within driving distance of Vickery, Ohio, this place is worth the trip. I found the wood I needed for the stringers and the plywood I need to complete the majority of my boat.

Here are some pictures of our trip to Homestead hardwoods and progress update on the boat.

The guy who owns this outfit built a "field of dreams" MLB size ball diamond in his backyard and the picture doesn't do it justice.

Enjoy!
The plywood originally used on your Chris Craft was Ribbon Stripe mahogany. Not the rotary cut plywood you showed a picture of.

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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jnbailey71 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:21 pm

Hi Jim-

Thanks for the information, can I ask where you are getting that information from? The wood I pulled off my boat didn't appear to be Ribbon Striped. The only part that did was the engine box. The styling addendum I got from the archives calls out ribbon stripped mahogany on the engine box only. Just curious if there is somewhere that calls out the rest of the panels as ribbon stripped definitely.

At any rate- I purchased 10 pieces of this plywood, I'm moving forward with using it because I like the look and I prefer the structural properties of this ply. I may use ribbon stripe when I remake the engine box.
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Re: Hull Construction- wood type

Post by jim g » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:50 pm

jnbailey71 wrote:Hi Jim-

Thanks for the information, can I ask where you are getting that information from? The wood I pulled off my boat didn't appear to be Ribbon Striped. The only part that did was the engine box. The styling addendum I got from the archives calls out ribbon stripped mahogany on the engine box only. Just curious if there is somewhere that calls out the rest of the panels as ribbon stripped definitely.

At any rate- I purchased 10 pieces of this plywood, I'm moving forward with using it because I like the look and I prefer the structural properties of this ply. I may use ribbon stripe when I remake the engine box.

20 years of working on these boats.

Also the first picture you posted showing the side plywood. The picture shows ribbon stripe plywood. It all Chris Craft used if it was going to be varnished.

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