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Red and White Hull Restoration

Framing, planking and fairing. Repair, or reconstruction. If it's hull related, you'll find it here.

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joanroy
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Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:33 pm

I've got an idea!

I will be doing a complete bottom replacement on the old Red and White after all the necessary frame repairs are complete. I understand all the options.....original, 5200, epoxy encapsulated, but I'm toying with the idea of someting new. Suppose I did an encapsulated marine plywood inner, lightly fastened and 5200 glued to the frame. Epoxy coated inside prior to installation with a layer of dynel epoxy coated fabric covering the outside to mimic the original canvas and provide abrasion resistance. Then a traditional mahogany planked outer bottom bedded under all fastener locations to prevent water from getting into the encapsulated inner bottom. The inner bottom would be no leak and structurally sound and the outer bottom would be traditional in appearance and easily removed for repair or future restoration.

Will it work?

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tkhersom
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by tkhersom » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:13 am

:?
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Greg Wallace » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:37 am

Combining traditional and enhanced bottom construction can be risky. Your "live" bottom planks are going to move around and at what point might the fasteners move enough to compromise their seal and allow water to penetrate your encapsulated inner layer. 5200 as a bedding material may mitigate this but I have concerns over the long haul.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by JimF » Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:55 am

Typically glass for abrasion resistance would be on the outside of the hull. There really is no abrasion between the back of the planks and the plywood. Glassing the plywood in the forward sections where you have to run the ply in diagonal strips might help stop potential leaks between the strips but this is not a huge issue. The way we drive our boats and the care we take of them makes damage repair not a big issue because we rarely bang them up. I would go traditional Dannenberg and coat all the plywood with a nice thick coat of 5200 as I was installing the new planks.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:02 am

I'm kind of hung up on the thinking the diagonal planked, canvas covered, outer planked original Chris Craft bottom is the way to go. I doubt if CC ever achieved a no leak bottom with the canvas. Probably more like a slow leak bottom until the outer planks had a chance to take up. My idea with using the dynel lamination on the outside of the inner is to add strength to the thin inner and also improve upon the purpose of the original canvas.......to stop leaks while the outer planks swell and allow the inner and outer planking to flex and move against each other without chafing damage. I know the 5200 system is super strong and no leak, but it's also dependant on the outer planks being completely sealed and encapsulated with a epoxy sealer to prevent any water at all from entering the planks. It very important to maintain this outer barrier to prevent any swelling. In other words, if 5200 glued together bottom planks absorb any water they will swell all together as one giant plank. That's potentially a lot of swelling. Don't know what happens at the chines at that point. If a boat is trailered and the bottom sealer is meticulously maintained the 5200 is definitely the way to go. No swelling required.

The Red and White will spend six months in the water and six on the hard. I just think it would be impossible to soak her for that long and prevent the outer bottom from swelling up. The bottom is bound to get nicked up somewhere along the line and water will find its way in. I can't even begin to imagine how a 5200 bottom could be repaired or ever replaced without a sawzall. Seems like a 5200 is a one shot deal and the bottom sealer absolutely needs to be perfectly maintained.

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Doug P » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:54 am

joanroy wrote:I can't even begin to imagine how a 5200 bottom could be repaired or ever replaced without a sawzall. Seems like a 5200 is a one shot deal and the bottom sealer absolutely needs to be perfectly maintained.
FYI https://store.marinebeam.com/3m-5200-se ... e-remover/

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:58 am

Can you get it in 55 gallon drums?

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Doug P » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:28 am

joanroy wrote:Can you get it in 55 gallon drums?
Yeah, than you can use the steel drums and turn it into a red and white Roamer...No swelling needed
1959-Roamer-25-Sportsman1.jpg

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Tightline5 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:13 pm

Joanroy, you are trying to produce a bottom that can set IN water for six months as I now read, correct?? In that case the only bottom that will hold up in that scenario is a true West System epoxy bottom. This calls for thin strips of marine ply with each additional coarse run in an opposite direction than the previous layer, building to say 3/4"-1' totally encapsulated. That bottom will last six month at a time immersed. NC offshore boats are built to this standard and set in the water year round.

NO other type bottom will last long in that environment. You will have a leaking boat even on the best dimensional lumber bottom in just a few years.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:28 pm

Phil, thanks for the input. The system your talking about is kinda what I'm thinking about for the 1/4inch inner bottom layer with the addition of the dynel fabric laminated to the outside of the inner. I would completely incapsulate the inner ply with epoxy and 5200 fasten to the frame to allow for flex. At that point the hull should be able to float leak free, but needing more thickness for strength. New mahogany fore and aft planking would then be installed and fastened through to the frames. The weak point in this system is where all the new fasteners penetrate the water proof inner. Careful bedding under the outer mahogany planks would be a must to keep water out of the inner core. If the outer planks needed replacement in the future they could be unfastened and removed.

With the system your talking about how wide and how thick are the crisscrossing strips? Are they mechanicaly fastened to the frame or just held with epoxy? Don't know if its true, but I've heard this bottom method is super strong, but doesn't flex at all and makes for a hard ride?

Thanks again. I'm exploring all options at this point. Yes, the boat will be in a slip for 6 months.

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Tightline5 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:43 am

For what you want a single 1/4 strip inner layer is not what you want. A true "West System" bottom requires multiple layers, usually four, and then know matter what the outer layer you want to install screws into it?? Water will weep into those screws because you want the boat to set in water for six months. There is a "Red & White" redone with epoxy that I have seen at the FL. show that is amazing. I Think that R & W is called Ecillion, or something like that. On a boat that size I do not believe she will ride "hard", and why run planks fore and aft, who is going to see it, the fish?? I use my boats and that sounds like what you want. For your application a West Bottom is the "only" way to go. Theses NC Sportfishers run in the roughest water on the east coast and they ride smooth, more to do with hull design. A R&W is built to handle and ride better than these runabouts that most speak of. I think she will ride smooth. Talk to guys who have done this, not to people who have "TALKED" to others, as there is alot of misinformation out there. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Ply I would use is 3/16 thick 6" wide where I could, also as the first layer from the transom forward to the curve I would use a singe first sheet all the way forward to the curve, just like on a 5200 bottom, then come back with the 3/16" x 6" strips for the last three layers. Forward of the flat surface you always have to narrow strip that area.


If you go West System Or Mass System Get a good book on how to do it, just like a 5200 bottom technique there are right and wrong ways to do an epoxy bottom. I have a very good book for the West System process that I would loan you as long as I get it back. It is like the Dannenberg bible for a 5200 bottom.

Remember there is nothing but bottom paint from the boot stripe down.
Phil Jones

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:14 pm

Original bottom condition. I'm sure some of you folks have seen this disaster before. Phil, thanks for offering up your book. I'm a ways away from bottom replacement at the moment, but if I go epoxy I'll definitely read up on it.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Tightline5 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:44 pm

I don't know how much you think you will "damage your hull over the years but I do know that if you bud up a 1" thick true West System bottom you can fire a 357 mag at the hull and it will not go all of the way through The hull. So I don't think you would ever need to repair her, and if so it would be easier than a 5200 bottom to do.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:30 am

Question about the mahogany planked 5200 bottom. Do any of you guys with the "done right" 5200 bottoms leave your boats in the water for your whole boating season, and if so, are there any problems related to the planks swelling?

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by dag55 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:13 pm

Something I don't really understand, is why you will have "flex" in your hull? If you are going epoxi, go it all the way! Don't mix with one part products. Just as Tightline says: the ONLY way to achieve a non leaking, is epoxi.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:31 pm

Yes Dag, your right. A no leak,long lasting and strong bottom can be achieved with a epoxy laminated type system. The preferred system used here is called The Dannenburg system which is a plywood inner covered with 5200 and then a traditional plank outer glued with the 5200 and bronze fastened as original into the frames. I know both systems have been used sucussefully, but I'm not sure if the 5200 Dannenburg is appropriate if a boat is to be stored in the water for a long time or only practical on occasional use trailored boats. One of the selling points of a 5200 type over the epoxy bottom is that the wood will be allowed to flex in rough seas as it should. Wood is flexible and it does move. The original fastened bottoms with no 5200 and no epoxy allowed for the wood to work and ride like a wooden boat. The original way is always a replacement option, but perhaps not the best. Based on others experience, I'm trying to determine the best way to go considering all the work and expense involved in doing a complete bottom replacement on a 25' Red and White. Not a small boat. I don't want to screw it up.

I'd love to hear from another CC double planked bottom owner with a replacement 5200 bottom who leaves his boat in the water for extended periods of time with hard use and how well the 5200 system has held up.

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Tightline5 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:19 pm

This was discussed on the Dannenberg site, This is defiantly a NO NO even with a new 5200 bottom.
A true epoxy bottom uses NO dimensional lumber at all and does not need to "flex" like an originally constructed CC would. As for a "Hard Ride" I feel that is subjective. My Shepherd rides better than any CC I have ever been in, or Century for that matter up to say 22', not knocking these boats just an observation, now that Hacker is a flat running smooth beast. :roll: :roll: :lol:
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by dag55 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:23 pm

The very missunderstanding about epoxi, is that some people think it is a completely stiff material, wich is wrong. Take a thin peice of cured laminating epoxi an break it; it will bend quite a lot before it breakes. When bonding wood with epoxi, you get a very smooth graduation between the wood and the epoxi itself, due to it's ability to penetrate wood. this alows the wood to keep it's natural elastisity. It also reduces he need for a lot of fasteners, only the amount needed to hold the pieces together until cured, then the epoxi bond is far stronger than any fastener. This is useful, when fastening bottom to frames.
In a motor boat and specially a large cruiser, you do want as much stability in the construction as possible, I can not see how "flex" in the hull would gain comfort in rough sea, or be a desired quality at all.
A different example is traditionally built old style klinker hulls, like open fishingboats or a viking ship, where the flexibility comes from the fact that their klinker hull is a separate structure and here the frames are there to keep the hulls shape, not to gain strength.
IMHO a CC cruisers hull is built on a framework, wich is supposed to give maximum strength and form stability to the construction.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:03 pm

Dag and Phil,I think your both right. You guys are working me pretty hard, and after discussing it with my son and partner in the restoration, we are leaning toward a laminated epoxy bottom. We're both professional carpenters, so no problems with the wood no matter what. I want the hull to be able to take a pounding in the regular 4 to 6 footers we get in Buzzards Bay without having to worry about the bottom falling off. I think an epoxy bottom may be a bit heavier than traditional, but if done correctly it shouldn't absorb water. My decisions not set in stone, but you guys are very convincing. Still will have to figure out how to deal with the chine and upper chine plank to get securely integrated with the bottom system. Definitely a structural weak point.

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Tightline5 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:03 pm

You continue your cold mold up to the boot stripe, past the chines. You could even go one plank higher by making that next row thinner and veneer the plank next to the chine plank on also then conventional from there up. I will try to locate the Red & White I spoke of I saw at the show in FL they would have lots of info on what you are trying to do, cold mold wise.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Tightline5 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:14 pm

Ok that was quick.
You need to contact Arron Ladonne at Ynot Yachts. If you go to WoodyBoater and scroll down about half way on the right you will see there add and also the boat they are in is a Red & White or at least there interpretation of it. They will have all the info you could need.

Always wanted to do one of those, love the lines.

Good luck
Phil
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by robertpaul » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:26 pm

Dag

I agree with your assessment of the role played by a CC cruiser's structural pieces. They are integrated with high levels of redundancy and give strength to the hull. It is important in a major restoration to be sure of the frames, chines, keelsons, keel, floors. The only way to be sure of what you have is to expose it all. Once the structure is rebuilt, the skin is more straightforward.... in my opinion (which is worth what you are paying for it). I have laminated every new frame with epoxy and am very happy with the results.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by dag55 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:39 am

About weigth, I would say that a epoxi/plywood laminated bottom, takes less material and weigth to more than the doubble strength of a coventional. Think of that epoxi is five times stronger than polyester used for fiberglass hulls... And if you folow tightlines advice, and lminate the outer skin up over the chines, unbreakable you go! :!:
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Tightline5 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:43 am

Jo, Because the boat is a painted hull I would go all the way to the gunnels with a cold mold epoxy hull, as that is what they did at Ynot's with there boat. Check out there web site, the R&W is listed there as "Eulipion" and she is a heck of a boat.

Good Luck
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1957 Deluxe Runabout D-17-2062
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:39 am

Phil, I checked out the boat your talking about. It's great looking and very well done. I'm going to stay as true to original as possible. When she's done I want her to look and run like a 1948 Red and White.

My side planking on both the Red and White and my 36 DSEB is V grooved at the edges and I like the look. If I do an epoxy bottom I will bring the cold molding one plank above the chine to tie it all together as you suggest. From there up I'll stay original.

I'll photo document the bottom work and post photos as we go.
Thanks for all your input.
Last edited by joanroy on Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by Tightline5 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:48 am

Another option would be to cold mold all the way and come back with a laminate router and put that small V-Grove in the sides. Just another option. If not make sure you edge bead 5200 to that first plank joint above the waterline.
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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by robertpaul » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:15 pm

JR

I have a silly question that stems from the fact I have never seen a Red and White in the water or on land. Are you going to be able to pull the engine and other stuff and turn it over, or is it too big? I am wondering how one would do what you are contemplating with the boat upright and against the pull of gravity. I have not worked with large surfaces of resin and cloth, so I have no idea how to approach the technique. I am not saying I'm doubtful, only that I am uninformed. I have always avoided any encapsulation on Elude because I thought it was deadly for a wooden boat. Again, I am finding the discussion interesting and maybe I just need to catch up on new and better ideas. It was a big enough leap for me to go to a 1088 inner plywood bottom, but that seemed so effective that I am prepared to consider any approach that still involves outer planks running front to back. Thanks

Rob
1937 35' Double Stateroom Enclosed Cruiser

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:38 pm

Rob, the Red and White is big ,actually more like a small cruiser than a runabout, with a tall PT style bow and is flippable. Just not easily. We're putting up a custom post and beam purpose built restoration/storage shed with cross beams high enough to lift and do the flip. The engine is already out and restored and of course the hardware will come off and some other stuff. I'd like to keep the original cabin intact if possible. The flip is not an option on my 36 or on your boat. Pretty much explains why there are so many restored smaller boats and not many restored cruisers.
Anyways, as far as the bottom goes, I have experience with epoxy laminations from my years as house restoration contractor and it's a practical way to go with the Red and White. Full encapsulation of the wood is essential because any water that gets in will stay in the ply cores and eventually rot. If I were to do a bottom on my cruiser, which I'm not any time soon, I'd do a marine ply inner and a mahogany planked as original outer. I'm not saying a good cold molded type bottom couldn't be done from underneath on a cruiser but it would be very very difficult and the chance of getting it 100 percent encapsulated without voids challenging.
Last edited by joanroy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by JimF » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:47 pm

I had a new bottom put on my Red and White at antiqueboatshop.com There are a ton of pictures showing the tear down and reassembly with two layers of plywood with 5200 in between. Look under recent projects and scroll down to 1946 Red and White. Slight error as mine is a 1940 not 1946.
1930 Chris-Craft Model 100 20' "MOXIE"
1940 Chris-Craft Red and White 25' "Old Paint"
1946 Chris-Craft Sportsman 25' "CinCity"

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Re: Red and White Hull Restoration

Post by joanroy » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:59 pm

Jim, do you leave your Red and White in water for the season and is the system used holding up well? Was the outside of the exterior ply epoxy encapsulated?

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