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Wiring of Generator

Your old Chris-Craft electrical system can be a challenge. If it runs on "juice" pose your questions and offer your advice here.

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tuobanur
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Wiring of Generator

Post by tuobanur » Sat May 23, 2015 11:48 am

Hoping for some help guys, getting very close to L-day and doing all the knit-picky stuff, one of those being the all dreaded wiring. Now I have completed most of it and most of it is working just find, but... Yesterday I cranked the engine in the boat for the first time and everything seem to be going well but then I noticed when everything is shut down that the generator is still pulling from the battery . The engine has been converting to 12 volts, mounted on top of the generator is the regulator which has two lugs, one marked battery and one marked ARM, I have my 10ga. wire running from the side marked batt. to the amp gauge and the amp gauge is wired to the hot side (un-switched side) of the ignition.
Since the mechanic that performed the work for me pasted away was hoping someone here might be able to enlighten me or point me to where I might can find the info I need. Will wiring the ARM side of the generator take care of the problem and if so where or how do I wire it??
Terry
1941 Model 101 (16') Deluxe Runabout "Miss Dot"

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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by sproat3 » Sat May 23, 2015 11:33 pm

Terry-
The 10 gauge wiring to the ammeter is correct; however, you need to run a 14 gauge wire from the Arm terminal on the regulator to the Arm terminal on the generator. The voltage regulator is supposed to prevent the battery from motoring the generator when the voltage output drops below the setpoint when the motor is idling so clearly, your voltage regulator is not working or wired correctly. If you had the boat rewired for 12 volt operation from 6V but did not replace the voltage regulator, you need to replace it. A standard 3 wire 12 volt generator has three terminals: A (armature), F (field), G (ground). They are wired to the A, F and G terminals on the voltage regulator. The B terminal on the regulator gets wired as you have it in your post.
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drrot
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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by drrot » Sun May 24, 2015 12:53 pm

This is from the Gray manual.
Gray wires2.jpg
Jim Staib
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1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
1968 Century 17' Resorter FG-68-174

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tuobanur
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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by tuobanur » Thu May 28, 2015 8:13 am

After further investigating i'm now thinking that what I thought to be a regulator is instead some sort of coil that has something to do with converting the generator from 6 to 12 volts,,,,,,I think. With that said I have posted some pics in hopes that someone here might recognize my situation.
FYI, the red wire is actually in the back ground and not part of.
Attachments
Gray model 70 gen. 04.JPG
Gray model 70 gen. 03.JPG
Gray model 70 gen. 02.JPG
Terry
1941 Model 101 (16') Deluxe Runabout "Miss Dot"

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JimF
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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by JimF » Thu May 28, 2015 8:39 am

What you have is called a "cut-out", not a regulator. One wire should go into the generator to the armature and the other to the ammeter. Someone will correct me but I believe the way it works is when the RPM's reach a certain point, it opens up and charging begins.
1930 Chris-Craft Model 100 20' "MOXIE"
1940 Chris-Craft Red and White 25' "Old Paint"
1946 Chris-Craft Sportsman 25' "CinCity"

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tuobanur
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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by tuobanur » Thu May 28, 2015 9:25 am

Will check that out this afternoon, haven't checked the voltage with the RPM's above 600. It also makes some since, when I first cranked it and went to shut the engine down it wouldn't, at that time I had the hot wire from the generator hooked to the ignition side of the switch and it was feeding back keeping the coil hot, even with the battery disconnected, so obviously the generator was doing something.
Also forgot to mention, not having problems anymore with the generator pulling from the battery when everything is shutdown, I had the hot wire hooked to the wrong leg on the "cut-out", once I moved it it took care of that problem, problem now is that it's not charging properly, but maybe at the higher RPM that will change.
Terry
1941 Model 101 (16') Deluxe Runabout "Miss Dot"

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tuobanur
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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by tuobanur » Thu May 28, 2015 10:12 am

JimF wrote:What you have is called a "cut-out", not a regulator. One wire should go into the generator to the armature and the other to the ammeter. Someone will correct me but I believe the way it works is when the RPM's reach a certain point, it opens up and charging begins.
The only thing that concerns me about that is what keeps it from over charging on long runs and dis-charging on long idles.
Terry
1941 Model 101 (16') Deluxe Runabout "Miss Dot"

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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by Denis D » Thu May 28, 2015 1:35 pm

the attached link will take you to an autolite service manual from back in the day. It is a wealth of information including model numbers wiring diagrams test procedures and specs. etc. It also explains the operation of the different types of generator controls.

http://vrr.dyndns.biz/Docs/Autolite/aut ... _start.pdf

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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by drrot » Thu May 28, 2015 3:29 pm

tuobanur wrote:
JimF wrote:What you have is called a "cut-out", not a regulator. One wire should go into the generator to the armature and the other to the ammeter. Someone will correct me but I believe the way it works is when the RPM's reach a certain point, it opens up and charging begins.
The only thing that concerns me about that is what keeps it from over charging on long runs and dis-charging on long idles.
Nothing. It charges by RPM. Here is a diagram for one wire generator.
Gray 6v (745x1024).jpg
Jim Staib
www.finewoodboats.com


1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
1968 Century 17' Resorter FG-68-174

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tuobanur
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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by tuobanur » Fri May 29, 2015 8:35 am

Thanks Jim, so with that said, are you familiar with this set-up and have seen it work with-out incident??
Terry
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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by evansjw44 » Fri May 29, 2015 9:01 am

Cut-out: What the cut-out does is connect and disconnect the generator to the electrical system. It is voltage sensetive and it measures the generator armature voltage. The generator armature voltage, unloaded, is directly proportional to it rotational speed. So, as you stated, at some engine speed (usually above idle) the generator voltage will be high enough for the cut-out to close its contact and connect the generator armature the electrical system.

Now, as the engine slow down the armature voltage drops and the generator wants to become a motor; drawing current from the battery to try to drive the engine. The cut-out has a winging that forces the cut-out contact to open when the armature current reverses and tries to make the generator motor. This winding also keeps the cut-out contact closed as long as there is current flowing from the armature to the electrical system.

Note that the cut-out does not control the generator voltage. It is used with a generator that has an internal voltage "control" via a third brush on the commutator that can be adjusted to control the generator field current and thus the armature voltage.
Jim Evans

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tuobanur
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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by tuobanur » Fri May 29, 2015 11:04 am

Amazing stuff, thanks.
Terry
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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by evansjw44 » Sun May 31, 2015 12:01 pm

I posted a description of how a cut-out works few days ago. It seems only right to post something about the difference between the cut-out and the Regulator.

Regulator: A regulator for a generator (not alternator) has ALL the functions of the Cut-out and components the regulate the generator output voltage. In the regulator box is a device that senses the generator armature voltage or, when the cut-out has connected the armature to the charging system, the charging system voltage. It adjusts the current applied to the generator field winding to achieve a preset output voltage at the armature terminals. It does this by connecting the field terminal of the generator to the armature terminal when the output voltage is below the preset value and breaking this connection when the output is above the preset value.

The regulating device, usually referred to as a relay, can experience considerable wear and arcing as it constantly opens and closes the field circuit. Its failure modes include sustaining enough wear that it cannot supply enough field current to reach the preset output voltage or its contact may fuse supplying full field current whenever the generator turning. In the first case the charging system will not receive high enough voltage from the generator to charge adequately. In the second case the charging system will experience higher than normal voltage and will over charge the batteries and may burn out lights or damage electronic equipment.
Jim Evans

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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by mbigpops » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:08 am

One more question.

I have a KL and during one of the first engine runs I wanted to make sure I had output from the generator so I connected a meter on DC volts.

At idle I saw about 8 volts and then when we increased the RPMs the meter started to jump up increasing the voltage and at one point I saw 40 volts flash. There was not load on the output of the generator at the time.

Is it okay to run like this with no load during test runs or should the battery always be connected to the generator ?

Thanks

Mark
1953 CC Rocket Runabout "Rocket Man"

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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by evansjw44 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:06 pm

Your question makes me think a bit. Ordinarily I would say the 40 volts is not a problem. But, we could be dealing with old insulation and a generator commutator that hasn't been cleaned in years. Those to items make me want to either put a load on it or remove the drive belt.
Jim Evans

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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by charlesquimby » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:39 am

That looks like a solid-state device. Go to the TRANSPO site to learn more. CQ

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Re: Wiring of Generator

Post by evansjw44 » Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:45 am

That looks like its just a big diode. A diode would do pretty much what a cut-out does. The wiring instructions on the side kind of give it away.
Jim Evans

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