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The Red and White Model W engine

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joanroy
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The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:03 pm

My son, in the loader, and his buddy get the W on the cradle and back to the shop. Its a beautiful piece of iron and I can't wait to hear it run. I have absolutely zero experience with these old marine flat heads. The Joanroy had Chrysler Crowns originally, but they were replaced with the modern 350's long before I owned her. I have worked on old Ford flatheads but there will definitely be a learning curve with the W. Happy to have the original power for X-25-289. Plan is to keep it that way.
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tkhersom
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by tkhersom » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:05 pm

They are great engines.

What are you planning on doing to it?

American Beauty has WBR's, which are 200HP versions of the 160HP W. :D

Here is the port engine when it was on it's way to the shop.
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Some parts are getting a little hard to find, but they are out there with some searching.
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:49 pm

Troy, thanks for the photo. Looks just like the W out of the Red and White. The story goes that the boat was restored and engine rebuilt in the 70's and the owner passed away after 80 hours of use. His widow never put her back in the water. Just sat in storage somewhere around Boston. Eventually ended up with a relative on the Cape and sat outside uncovered for many years. Pulled the head off and the trans cover and it all looks good. No water in her and not seized up. Cylinder walls look good. Will do what is necessary to get it running in the shop for now and see how she sounds. Might not need a complete rebuild. What did you do to yours?

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tkhersom
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by tkhersom » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:30 pm

My port engine had a knock and oil leak even though it had been advertised as having 15 hours since rebuild. :?

Needed new main bearings so here is what we did with her.
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:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:10 pm

I see. After our test run, we may be doing the same. Who knows? We might get lucky. At least it's a hell of a lot easier to get an engine out of an open cockpit than from under the floor inside the stateroom of a cruiser. So it would seem the W series engines had quite a long run. My boats a 1948 and yours a 1958. How many years were these engines used? They must have proved out to be really reliable to have lasted so long.

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tkhersom
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by tkhersom » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:03 am

Being that AB is an Express the engine pull was actually quite easy. They are just below the helm.
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I think you have read the story, but if not, here it is.

http://www.chris-craft.org/discussion/v ... =45&t=8610
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

Oberon01
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by Oberon01 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:23 am

Hi Joanroy - I think the W was used from roughly the early '40's until the very late '50's or possibly even very early '60's. I am no expert but I believe the Chris Craft 4 &6cylinder engines, all of which were Hercules in origin unless otherwise specified, listed with minor changes from the early to mid '30's until the end of the run as noted above.

They are simple, reliable and low-stress industrial engines for the most part which CC then converted to marine applications. They have a pleasing sound, decent torque and modest specific output to be sure, but they are well suited to the boats in many cases. Parts are generally not that hard to get as Hercules made these engines in large numbers and for many applications.

The development of inexpensive overhead valve engines was their death knell, along with of course the passage of time. The W should be a very nice engine in the R & W.
1926 Mullins 16' Outboard Special
1940 CC 19'Custom
1946 Gar Wood 22' 6" Sedan
1946 16' Peterbrough Falcon
1947 CC 16' Special Runabout
1947 Chris Craft 22' Sportsman
1948 CC 25' Sportsman Sedan
1959 Feather Craft Islander Express Cruiser
1961 CC 21' Continental
1965 Glastron Futura 500 V -164
1965 CC Sea Skiff 24'

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:53 pm

Thanks Troy and Oberon. Glad to know theres a lot out there and parts are available. Gonna be needing a few part for mine. Received my hull card and my engine numbers match. Also surprised to see top speed with a single W was 36 mph. With the twins 35 MPH. Coincidentally, I see the W is featured on today's Woody Boater.

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:54 pm

Got the old W cleaned up a bit and ordered some parts from Jim at Fine Wooden Boat. Great guy to deal with and a wealth of information. Thanks again Jim.
Should be ready to fire it up next week. Can you tell from the photo of my Sherwood pump if its a bronze or rubber impeller type?
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evansjw44
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by evansjw44 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:03 pm

Its a gear type pump. You can tell by the grease cup and the two bearings bosses cast into the cover.
Jim Evans

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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by evansjw44 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:08 pm

You might want consider installing hard valve seat inserts. All the Hercs are prone to valve seat cracks.Some machinists used to have ( and still do) portable boring machine that can do the machine for valve seats on site.
Jim Evans

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:13 am

Thanks Jim, Probably will do the valves at some point. For right now we're just cleaning it up, putting the head back on, and doing a test run. We'll see how she sounds and then decide if we need to get into doing a short block. The next step is to get the hull restored.

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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by Greg Wallace » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:32 am

The W is a brute for sure. First appeared in 1940 (model year). Starts out with peak torque at near idle and stays within 10 LB FT. through 2400. Its nice to see you keeping her original.
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.

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evansjw44
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by evansjw44 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:22 am

While you have the head off, at least check for burned exhaust valves. Burned valves lead to valve seat and block cracks which are so common on the old Herculese engines. Burned valves don't show up on compression test until they are really bad. Usually you can hear them in the exhaust note. A burned exhaust valve makes a chug sound instead of a thump as the combustion gases are leaking past the valve when the cylinder fires.
Jim Evans

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:07 pm

We're taking your advice , Jim Evans, and have amended our plan. We connected the battery to the starter and got the W cranking over with the head off so we could check out the valve action. NOT GOOD. Three of the exhaust valves were hanging up. They all opened and closed fine when turning by hand, but not with the faster starter turn. Anyway, to make a long story short we pulled the manifolds and the valve covers. Good thing, valves that were open after her last run thirty or so years ago were full of rust and crap. The good news is the valves aren't burnt, springs, guides, cam etc. all OK. We'll clean it up, grind the valves, get it all adjusted up.....and then we'll put the head on and start it up.
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Jim Godlewski
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by Jim Godlewski » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:47 am

Very nice project, thanks for all the photos and keep em coming...
1956 17 Sportsman CC-17-2310
1930 Model 100 7152

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tkhersom
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by tkhersom » Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:53 pm

Looking Good! :D
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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tkhersom
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by tkhersom » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:18 pm

Here is one of the differences between the W and the WB. Without looking up the specs I would suspect the WB has a slightly larger bore also. If my memory serves me correctly the W is 160 HP while the WB is rated at 200 ponies.
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Dual Carbs on WB
And this is my brother Rory helping me record the linkage routing by "pointing" to the linkage, before I removed the Zeniths for rebuild.
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Rory helping point out the linkage routing.
So now with two W's in AB and an MCL in each Continental we have 8 of these mammoth carbs to maintain. :D
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:45 am

Troy, timely post. I just now have my "one" Zenith on the bench. Finished the starter and now trying to figure out how to get my accelerator pump un-stuck. Got a nice carb kit from Fine Wooden Boat and some other good stuff. Jims even sent me four needed nice condition used head bolt nuts. Those old nuts are hard to find.
Coincidentally, my brothers point with the same finger when I ask them to help work on the boat.
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tkhersom
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by tkhersom » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:28 am

Do you know anyone in your area with an ultrasonic carb tank? They work wonderful for cleaning up old carbs.

From here that carb looks small, but pictures can be deceiving. :D
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:20 pm

Got the carb cleaned up and rebuilt. Starter back on. A little bit closer to a test run!
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joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:40 pm

Great Test Run!
Doesn't knock, great compression and oil pressure, runs smooth and sounds sweet. Excellent day at the shop.
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tkhersom
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by tkhersom » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:13 am

YAHOO!!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Do you have a video?
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:53 pm

Sorry, no moving pictures. Now that we know we have a good engine we'll get it painted up and move forward with the hull restoration. Got very lucky with the W. Not having to do a full rebuild is huge. Moving on to Hull Construction.

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tkhersom
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by tkhersom » Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:26 pm

All of those 6cyl Herc's are AWESOME bullet proof engines. Love their simplicity and longevity. :D
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

Katanna
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by Katanna » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:01 pm

Its December, you run an engine and don't include a video with sound? You should be on probation! :(

Steve

joanroy
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by joanroy » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:16 am

Yes Steve, I agree. It is rather anticlimactic seeing pictures of an engine running and not hearing it run. Tell you what. After I get the W all dressed up with her lipstick on I'll fire it up again and recruit one of my grandkids to make a video. That posting of videos is a daunting task for for a low tech guy like myself. Until then it sounded like... put put put put varooooom put put put put varoooom, etc,etc,etc....................................................

Katanna
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by Katanna » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:57 pm

that would be acceptable. In the mean time, sounds like you have a miss on the number five cylinder...

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tkhersom
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by tkhersom » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:54 pm

With that kind of sound I am very concerned that the exhaust manifold to elbow bearing is being severely starved of proper lubrication. If you will open the defibrillator valve (mounted on the port side of a starboard steer boat and the starboard side of a port steer boat, of course) and allow the afterburner to flow more freely across the flux capacitor, than I am sure that you will obtain a perfectly symmetrical reflection of the gluteus-maximus, in the ski mirror, when the moon is shining brightly over the engine box.

Just Saying! :D
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

jim g
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Re: The Red and White Model W engine

Post by jim g » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:28 pm

It's the Hooter Valves making the noise. They have to be replaced in pairs and they are usually found on the front seat next to the driver.

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