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Too much steam

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Kade06
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Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Tue May 31, 2016 4:35 pm

Sure hope you guys can help with what I'm about to write because I'm about to pull what's left of my hair out. Anyway last summer I had a myriad of problems resulting in a rebuilt starter, water pump and alternator as well as a top end rebuild including the heads being checked and resurfaced ( they were good), exhaust manifolds being cleaned out and new end gaskets installed ( one was stopped up from rust) and a carb restore and a used aluminum intake manifold. All this on a flywheel forward 350 rebuilt in the '80's off a '65 cavalier. Compression was low before al this like 50's low and is now back up to the 120 range. So anyway thought all was good but was worried about more steam than usual but thought it's texas, humid and colder water until last weekend when it was pushing 90 with water temps in the 70's range. Steam was trailing behind the boat like it was 30 degrees in January. We've owned this boat since '80 and it has never steamed like this at idle or cruising speed. Used a temp gun and shot the manifold's and water coming out. Highest temp we got was in the 120 range which is close to what the gauge is showing telling me I'm not running hot but the paint on the starboard side elbow was bubbling. I'm at a loss. Water flow is good and the starboard side at idle will creep up to the 140 range while the port side stays the same. After researching some old post I've thought maybe not putting the metal tabs in the intake manifold gaskets was my problem but after talking to my mechanic that's known the boat since the '80's he said he thought that was unlikely but I feel for it to steam out of both sides it has to be a common thing to both sides of the motor. On top of that it acts hard to start just out of the blue and the next time it fires right up. Thought batteries but One is a year old and after getting started thought I'd run it up on a plain and it wouldn't go over 1500 rpm regardless of the gas I gave it. I'm pretty disgusted as I thought after last year I had passed all this crap. Thanks for the help in advance.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

jim g
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Re: Too much steam

Post by jim g » Tue May 31, 2016 7:20 pm

Lets see.

What aluminum intake are you using? Edelbrock or some type like that or the Chris Craft low profile intake?

The paint on the starboard elbow shows lack of flow. Where the backs of the exhaust manifolds put back together correctly. The 1/2" thick plate between the manifold and the inlet plate is specific to a certain side and they can also be put on backwards as well.

What brand manifolds are you using?

What style water pump are you using? If its a gear pump who rebuilt it?

As far as starting and running. What type of ignition system are you using? Is it Pertronix? If so are you using a Pretronix coil?

Some picture would also be helpful?

Jim

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mfine
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Re: Too much steam

Post by mfine » Tue May 31, 2016 9:28 pm

Check your timing and spring advance.

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Tue May 31, 2016 9:33 pm

It's original cc intake aluminum for the Rochester 4 jet with the wedge cast in. Brass gear pump rebuilt by van ness. Pertronix ignition with pertronix coil. Port manifold to our knowledge is original to the boat and the other is appx. 25 years old.
cc steam 1.JPG
1
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cc steam 3.JPG
3
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Tue May 31, 2016 9:34 pm

Timing is on the mark and van ness also rebuilt the distributor and the advance mechanism.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

jim g
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Re: Too much steam

Post by jim g » Tue May 31, 2016 10:05 pm

Kade06 wrote:It's original cc intake aluminum for the Rochester 4 jet with the wedge cast in. Brass gear pump rebuilt by van ness. Pertronix ignition with pertronix coil. Port manifold to our knowledge is original to the boat and the other is appx. 25 years old.
cc steam 1.JPG
cc steam 2.JPG
cc steam 3.JPG
Change the pertronix coil out for a napa IC7. I think. I'll check my parts sheets tomorrow and let you know. I've change out 3 pertronix coils in the last 3 weeks for the same problems your describing on your running problem. All coils are less then a year old. It could also be the igniter. But I only replace one every 3 or 4 years. I have about 50 to 60 customers running them.

Also the original intake are prone to the exhaust gas eating through the exhaust chamber under the the carb. This is basically a pre warmer for the air coming in. It will do one of to things.It will leak exhaust gas into the air chamber or leak exhaust gas into the crankcase. I have seen one do both. Both of these will give you running problems but there a little different then what your describing. Its more prone to doing this on the original ones that have the W emblem and GM casted in them. If its the later OSCO replacement then your probably good. You can check the intake chamber by removing the carb and tapping the intake all around the aluminum under the carb with a big flat blade screwdriver. You don't have to hit it hard. I would do this if the coil doesn't fix it.

Now to the steaming problem. You can look underneath the the manifolds and if there is a 4 digit number casted in them then they are original. At this time I'm leaning towards the 1/2" plate at the rear of the manifold between the manifold and the rear plate that that the elbow bolts to either being on the wrong sides or turned around backwards.

Nothing against your mechanic but a lot of them don't know that there is a left and right and a front to back. If the tab that tells you that is broken off and a lot of them are then its easy to see them on wrong. I have seen it many times over the last 20 years.

Take a picture of the rear of the manifolds from the top and the side and post them.

As to the intake gaskets. With the low profile intake you are using. You don't need the ones with the cooling ports closed off. But it is recommended. By using the ones with the closed off passages. It protects the aluminum from corroding. I would sort your problems out then change them. I have the correct ones in stock. The ones with metal plates glued to them are ones that someone modified.

Also take a temp reading with your temp gun on the front of the head right next to the water outlet going to the exhaust manifold. You should be able to touch it with the backs of your fingers for several seconds without burning them.

Hope this helps.

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Tue May 31, 2016 10:30 pm

Okay cool. I'll get on that and get back to you asap.Thanks
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

jim g
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Re: Too much steam

Post by jim g » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:48 pm

Kade06 wrote:Okay cool. I'll get on that and get back to you asap.Thanks
You want the napa IC14 not the IC7 like I posted earlier.

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:28 pm

Okay thanks. Headed down now to get pics of manifolds. Will post shortly
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:18 pm

cc steam 16.JPG
cc steam 15.JPG
cc steam 14.JPG
cc steam 13.JPG
cc steam 12.JPG
cc steam 11.JPG
cc steam 10.JPG
cc steam 9.JPG
cc steam 8.JPG
cc steam 7.JPG
cc steam 6.JPG
cc steam 5.JPG
cc steam 4.JPG
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

Kade06
Posts: 87
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:19 pm

Couldn't find any numbers on the port side exhaust manifold. Hope this helps might have overkilled it.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

jim g
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Re: Too much steam

Post by jim g » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:38 pm

Kade06 wrote:Couldn't find any numbers on the port side exhaust manifold. Hope this helps might have overkilled it.

Good pictures. I need to check a couple of things on an engine at work to make sure I have it correct.

joanroy
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Re: Too much steam

Post by joanroy » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:31 pm

Why did you change out the intake manifold and have you re-checked the compression?

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Re: Too much steam

Post by jfrprops » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:51 pm

Jim G....great post.....packed with good info...some of which I had forgotten....

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:54 pm

previous manifold had corrosion on the port forward corner and a piece popped off. Tried to fix but too rotten. A ground was located there on the manifold bolt but has since been moved. Haven't checked since last fall when it went back together. This is what I had at that time.
1 135 2 140
3 135 4 140
5 120 6 140
7 120 8 135

before I did the heads

1 120 2 80
3 100 4 90
5 140 6 90
7 80 8 65
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

joanroy
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Re: Too much steam

Post by joanroy » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:01 am

Reason I asked about the compression is I'm wondering if you could have a little water seeping into the cylinders causing the excessive steam. It's odd that you can't get above 1500 RPM'S. That could be totally unrelated to the steaming.

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:49 am

I was thinking the same thing and will do another compression test hopefully in the next few days.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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mfine
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Re: Too much steam

Post by mfine » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:16 am

If the compression looks good check your timing again, base and total at 3000-3500 rpm.

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:56 am

I'm curious whhy everybody mentions the timing. What issue would that contribute to? TIming is on the chris craft mark and its firing right up and hitting on all cylinders but seems louder than normal.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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mfine
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Re: Too much steam

Post by mfine » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:39 am

Retarded timing will produce very hot exhaust gasses which will give steam in a wet exhaust. It could also explain the lack of power to get to higher RPM. Loud exhaust is another. When you say right on the mark, how are you testing and at what RPM? edit: See Paul P's post linked below.
Last edited by mfine on Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mfine
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Re: Too much steam

Post by mfine » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:46 am

Here is a very helpful post from Paul P.

http://www.chris-craft.org/discussion/v ... 501#p28402

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:47 am

It's right on the chris craft mark. I don't feel timing is an issue. It starts immediately and runs great. Used a timing light to hit that mark.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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mfine
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Re: Too much steam

Post by mfine » Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:22 am

It sounds like you have not tested the advance, and you are not saying what RPM you tested at. If it is right on the mark at a 600 RPM idle it may be off from where it was supposed to be set at 500. If you have an issue with the advance, it may still be on the mark at 1500 rpm when is shouldn't be.

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:12 am

I will check again @ 500 rpm. Did compression test and all was good there. Bypassed water pump and hooked a sump pump to the hoses and ran pushing more water through. Port side steam was better but still noticeable as was starboard but more on the starboard side. I'm really leaning towards bad manifolds but I'll check timing and let yall know what I find.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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Re: Too much steam

Post by jim g » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:45 pm

The 1/2 inch plates between the manifold and the rear plate look to be on the correct sides.

Did your mechanic use gaskets between these plates? I see sealant but don't see a gasket between them. Also there are the 2 gaskets on the end are the same rectangle shape but they are different. If he just used sealant I don't think it staying sealed. I usually have to flatten the 1/2 inch plate and the end plate. Also the gaskets I get are thick to take into account possible warpage.

I see what might be gasket material sticking out in one picture. I'm wondering if your mechanic made gaskets for the plates. If so I would get new pre made ones and replace them.

Does the short hose that goes from the back of the manifold to the rear mount plate have a kink in it?

The starboard manifold is definitely a replacement. But I can't tell if its a barr or osco. Although I'm leaning towards the Barr because of the casting marks.

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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:20 pm

He made gaskets and used sealant to my knowledge. My dad bought the starboard manifold 20 years ago or so maybe 25 and he thinks it was used. Other than that he doesn't remember much ( selective memory) lol. That hose does looked to be kinked but I don't believe it's inhibiting the flow but I'm probably going to replace all the hoses just to make sure. I hope it's not barr but I'm probably going to take of and have checked by a chris craft expert and put back together I just think ( pray) it's just the manifolds. Probably time to buy new ones since they're out of stock and then it'll be the kids problem down the road. Thanks for the help.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

jim g
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Re: Too much steam

Post by jim g » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:38 pm

Well your dad is right. It has a production date of 1993 on it. So if it wasn't new it was close.

I think your problem is probably in the rear plate area. Unless one is still stopped up with rust.

Kade06
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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:17 pm

I think you're right Jim and appreciate your input. I'll let ya know what comes of this when I get the manifolds checked out. That all being said I'm not going to tell him he was right....I'll never hear the end of it. LOL
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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Re: Too much steam

Post by jim g » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:43 pm

Kade06 wrote:I think you're right Jim and appreciate your input. I'll let ya know what comes of this when I get the manifolds checked out. That all being said I'm not going to tell him he was right....I'll never hear the end of it. LOL
As a father he already knows he right.

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Re: Too much steam

Post by Kade06 » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:31 pm

LOL I think you're right.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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