Water stains

[kmjohnson]

I have a 1955 Cavalier (plywood hull) that has some minor water stains or it could be the start of some rot.
The wood is sound and after staining I will be using CPES as a sealer so I am not to concerned about this structurally. I think that bleach will solve the problem but I am not sure how to proceed. Is there a special bleach for wood working? I assume I will need to bleach the entire hull to get uniform results when I stain.
Any suggestions or comments? Amount and strength of solution, rinsing?

Ken

[evansjw44]

So where are the water stains? If you apply stain and then CPES and the wood darkens I would expect you have a water leak and decay is not far behind. But I have to wonder if bleach can get through the CPES. I know that if you puul a varnish finish that bleach can clean it up but I wouldn't expect CPES to behave that wat.

[kmjohnson]

Thanks for your input.

The staining is just below the gunwale in two places on one side of the hull. one area is maybe 10 sq inches the other twice that size. See the two pictures attached.

I would be bleaching the hull prior to application of stain of CPES.

The entire boat is stripped of all finish now.
Does that give you a better idea of the problem?

Ken

[evansjw44]

Am I looking at the rub rail or the chine? I would expect to see stains like that at the rub rail. Its trying to tell you to pull if off and re-seal it. If you don't the stain will be back. Ususally, pulling off a rub rail is not a big deal. If its at the chine it is also trying to tell you to re-seal it but pulling off the chine might be a tough job if it was originally sealed with Thyacol. That's tough stuff but it can leak over time.

Note that water stains like that in plywood often come with some de-lamination.

[kmjohnson]

Thanks Jim,

What you are looking at is the rub rail and that will all be replaced or at least 5' of it in the area of the stain. The rub rail has some rot it that area. The plywood is sound and I do not believe that it has
delaminated. What would you seal the new piece of rub rail with? What is Thyacol?

My mains concern is getting the stain to be consistent color over the entire hull.

Can you tell me anything about bleaching?

Any input would be appreciated.

Ken

[rpccc43]

Hi Ken,

I had similar problems with the transom on my 1965 Connie. I had to replace planks and patch some large screw holes where the previous owner had mounted transom steps. The result was several shades of wood that would not be masked by varnish alone. I tried several products but found only one that worked well. Klean Strip Wood bleach found in wood working shops or online. Follow the directions on the box exactly and you should have no problems. You may have to do it twice. After you are done bleaching sand very lightly as the bleach only affects the surface of the wood. If you sand too much you'll get back to the natural darker color wood. I used Interlux Christ Craft Red filler stain, then CPES and 9 coats of varnish. I am happy with the results and I get lots of compliments although it's not show quality. Good luck on you project.

Randman

[evansjw44]

I have used the Kleen-Strip bleach many times. I use the "mix part A and and part B together" method instead of the first use part A then neutralize with part B. Over a large surface the "A then B" method dries too fast and just makes a mess. A light sanding the 100 grit and vacumming makes you ready for stain. You'll need two people to stain. One applies the stain with a brush (no rollers, please)and the other wipes the excess as the solvents flash. Wipe the majority off across the grain or in a swirling motion and then gently with the grain. Use burlap as the wiping cloth. Do not use a soft wiping cloth and do not use polyester.

Now here is were I differ on my finishing technique. I use Interlux 1026 sealer and not CPES. I beleive that if you ever have to refinish the CPES will lock in the stain (and water stains) unless you can remove a lot of wood. On plywood you can't remove much wood before you're through the venier. Plain old paint remover will pull 1026 and stain with minimum material removal. I do two coats of 1026. After the first coat I knock the surface with gary ScotchBright pads. Then, clean up and tack off and a second coat of 1026. Next a light Scotchbright rub down and varnish. After the first coat of varnish I sand lightly with 220 grit. Clean off, tack and varnish. Next is ScotchBright to knock off the gloss, clean up, tack off and varnish. I alternate sanding and ScotchBright between coats. After four coats of varnish you might want to block sand. The finish is very thin still so you can't after the surface agresively. Eight coats of varnish aught to get you a nice finish. To fill all the grain might take 15 coats of varnish ans block sanding.

Consider building coats with Interlux Jet Speed varnish. It builds fast and dries fast. Under the right conditions you can get two caots a day. Its no good for finish coats. Pick the varnish of your choice but I use Benjamin Moore Impervo 440. Its soft and flexible and won't shrink and crack at seams. Some other varnishes are just as good. I would suggest you avoid polyureathane varnishes. They are too hard and will fracture at joints that work, at lest that's my expereince.

[Chris Dorflinger]

All sound advice above. In my opinion rollers are not a problem if you want to use them. You will get a good even coat and not waste much stain if you choose them. I just yesterday finished a 44' stain job on all bright work areas and would still be looking at several more days if I had not used a roller. Just work an area of the size as to not dry on you before you can rub it out. Takes a bit of a learning curve to get the technique down. Do not worry if you get a bad look on the first area. All you need to do is re-apply the stain in the area and the thinners will allow you to move the bloches out. It is timing that will get you the best results.
One more very important thing to keep in mind...GET RID OF THOSE RAGS!!!... The thinner in the stain is such that can and will cause spontanious combustion in your burlap rags. Let them air dry for a few days well away from anything of value.

[Al Benton]

Jim,

You've got me worried about the CPES. Is what you say from a bad experience in using it or is that a theory? I have used it on my cruiesr and so far haven't had problems. The areas that are sealed with it are doing great, to date. One large toe rail was done about 5 years ago, the other areas are about 2 years old now.

I've found that there are many varnishing techniques that folks use and most seem to achieve great looking finishes. It's an acquired skill based on trying what other folks do and always seem to end up being a little different based on what works for you. Some swear by "roll & tip". I can't get the hang of it at all. Some use foam brushes, I just make a giant mess with them. Some wait and sand after 2 or 3 coats, I end up with windows and curtains all over. Some use ScotchBrite pads, I can't find the right touch for them.

A good friend helped varnish a little hydroplane for me recently. We were out of time so he sprayed the varnish on, probably put the equivilavent of about 5 brushed coats on in one afternoon. Three days later he buffed it out with a power buffer and it looked fantastic and was ready for seam caulk.

Al

[evansjw44]

We all seem to develope our own methods to produce finishes. Al uses rollers, I don't know how. I have a freind that does large transoms with a roller in one hand and a 4" Badger brush in the other. I has complete independent control of each.. He rolls, he brushes and off he goes. Maybe he'd be a good drummer. Me, I'm not that coordinated. I'm trying to get the hang of foam brushes but even with some caoching from a foam brush finisher I still just try it for build coats.

As for CPES in place of sealer, that is theory on my part but here's my logic. Stripper will disolve sealer and bring it to the surface. Sealer is a resin based product like varnish. You can pull it off with stripper and wash off with bronze wool and alcohol. I've done this for years. But I don't think stripper will pull CPES. It certainly won't attack grp enough to get it off, just mess it up. I'd like to hear from someone who has pulled CPES with stripper. I don't think a heat gun will pull it either.

This fits my senses of "don't do something you can't undo". If I were doing professional finishing and I wasn't concerned that my customer might return for a refinish then maybe I'd stretch. But I seem to have to follow my own work, even if its 20 years later.

[Al Benton]

Jim,

Thanks for your reply. Your reasoning is valid.If used on plywood there would be no chance to re-do at all. The lamination is so thin that it would be gone in no time if sanded too much.

About 6 or 7 years ago I tried some test runs on old and new pieces of solid Philippine Mahogany. After it cured I sanded to see if the depth could be determined. The stuff penetrates deep in old wood but not in new wood, just coats the surface.

I also tried it both before and after staining, this time only in old wood. When the stain was applied after the CPES cures and without sanding, it was splotchy (is that a word?). It improved a little after lightly sanding the CPES before staining. I sanded another area more, removing quite a bit of wood, then stained. The results were still not good. I had to remove over 1/16" of wood before the stain was nice enough to call OK, but still not perfect. By then, the CPES was probably 90% gone and of no benefit as a surface sealer.

The best results on both old and new wood samples was to apply the CPES after staining. The stain on these samples had cured well before the CPES was soaked into them, as I now recall.

Later that year I replace the forward decking plywood on the Connie. The toe rails were removed to do this. After they were back on, bunged, trimmed, faired, sanded and stained, I applied CPES to a length of the port side one before varnishing. That section has held up better than the areas that were just varnished.

Two years ago the starboard covering board (gunwale) was stripped, sanded, stained, sealed with CPES and varnished. I applied the CPES less than 24 hours after staining but the weather was hot and I'm guessing that the solvents had mostly discipated. It turned out great.

The next section to stain was the aft covering board (crown???) which didn't go so well. The weather had cooled a little and was clouy. The stain was not cured and the CPES disolved the stain. It ran and swirled in places. I had to remove it all quickly using acetone and what I could reach to wipe with (mostly paper towels and one of my wife's favorite beach towels). What a mess!!! My wife is still looking for that towel (I'll never tell either).

Al

[MLVR]

Thanks Al for reply in the other thread. I moved my question to this one...

If it's not recommended to impregnate the wood with CPES before staining. What do you suggest impregnating it with instead? A classical is Linseed oil. Or should I use cpes from the inside, after I've stained and varnished?

What do you say about this step-by-step guide from SmithandCompany:

"Depending on whether the wood is old or new and the visual effect one seeks, a filler stain and the CPES are used together in different ways.
Here are three:

Even color tone: Old wood such as an antique or classic boat

1. Sand to clean sound wood.

2. CPES to seal wood porosity. You should be able to sand within 24 hours, even though it won’t be fully cured.

3. Sand with 80 grit, or 100, or 120, etc., depending on how much you want to darken the wood. Coarser grit will hold more stain and thus give the wood a darker tone. Finer grit will hold less stain and thus not darken the wood so much. Sand parallel to the grain, only enough to remove the surface resin film of CPES and expose wood surface fibers.

4. Stain: Brush filler-stain on wood parallel to the grain and wipe off with cheesecloth perpendicular to the grain..

5. Allow the stain to fully cure so it is resistant to the solvents of the CPES. This typically takes four days.

6. CPES

7. Topcoat"

Final questions before finishing the hull sides.

It's now bare mahogany wood. And I am still a bit confused whether or not I should impregnate the wood with cpes, sand it off when dried and then stain and seal with another two layers of cpes before varnishing.

Or, is there no need to impregnate the wood? It will be in water for 3 months.

Best regards,
Max

[kmjohnson]

Thank you Jim and Randman for the great advice about Klean Strip Wood bleach and Interlux 1026 sealer VS CPES. CPES is a great product but because of your logic maybe not the best choice for plywood.

I am anxious to try the Klean Strio wood bleach and get to the fun of putting a finish on.

It is so nice to be able to get info from people like you with experience with these wonderful boat.

Thanks,
Ken

[Al Benton]

Ken,

My appologies for straying from the subject on this thread. It sort of went from bleach to sealer. You did mention CPES so it's probably as good place to post our comments.

In reply to Max regarding Steve Smith's outline;
The reason that I did the tests 6 or 7 years ago with different applications was to see first hand the effects of applying CPES on older Ph. Mah. before staining as Steve's outline states. I'm glad that I did because I didn't like the results. Too much wood had to be worn off before the stain job started looking just OK.

Granted, the CPES will not penetrate as deep into old wood once stain/sealer (Interlux #517 CC Red) is applied but the old wood well above the waterline probably doesn't need it either. The advantage of the CPES on this wood is to prepare the stained surface for applying the varnish. It's a great clear primer/sealer that, in my case, holds up very well, much better than other areas that don't have the CPES yet.

I've been thinking about the application on plywood a little more. The stains are a result of water seeping into the fibers of the wood. The outer lamination is very thin and the part that you don't want stains to show. I believe that CPES (after staining) would soak into the wood fibers and protect it from future staining. What do you think?

Al

[evansjw44]

There is some logic to sealing with CPES, especially where there has been previous water penetration. But I doubt you can just spot seal with CPES and not have it show. This commits you sealing the entire hull with CPES. I think this precludes ever refinished the hull other than paint. I don't think you can pull the stuff out once its cured.

[Al Benton]

Jim,

I think you may have something there, especially with plywood. Not so much with solid wood as it can be sanded deep enough to re-stain but you certainly would risk sanding through the top lamination on the plywood. How long will the stain/CPES/Varnish finish hold up is the question. It hasn't been around long enough to tell.

I haven't had to refinish mine after 7 years on that toe rail. I may need to strip it some time in the future though and I don't think bleach will do anything with the CPES on there.

The finish should hold up if maintained but...

Al

[kmjohnson]

Jim and Al,

Thanks, this does get complicated. I agree that spot use of CPES probably is not a good idea.
I am sure the water stains even after removal with the Klean Strip wood bleach has some very good potential for returning because of the underlying decay in the wood. On one hand I am not sure there is enough thickness to the veneer to go through the striping and re-staining process again, so CPES may be OK. Then again I hate to shot myself in the foot. Are there any other products that may treat the rot causing bacteria inside the plywood without acting as a sealer and then using interlux 1026 or Pettit 2018 sealer before the varnish? I have heard of something you inject with a needle into the wood. What do you think?

On a slightly different topic but the same area of my boat. I am replacing a section of the rub rail, what should that be bedded to the hull with?

Thanks,
Ken

[Al Benton]

Ken,

There are some rot treatment products out there but most may leave residue that would affect staining (don't know for sure). It's the same problem as with the CPES.

Borate is good for rot protection. The chimical name is Disodium Octoborate and can be found in some hardware stores and farm supply stores. System Three Board Defence Borate Powder is available at Jamestown Distributers. It can be messy to use, being a salt-like solution that expands slightly, gets on everything close and is hard to clean up after it dries. It does wash off with water though and my present thought is to apply it, then wash it off the surface with damp rags, lightly sand and then stain/seal. It may be a good idea to experiment a bit on an old piece of plywood first though.

As for bedding the rail, I used Interlux #214 Bedding Compound to bed the toe rails, other trim and hardware on my Connie. Dolfinite (by Pettit) is good as well. Some folks use BoatLife Life Caulk, Sikaflex 291 caulk or 3M 101 caulk. The caulks make removal more difficult later but still possible. You don't want to use a true adhesive type caulk such as 3M 4200 or 5200 as they are fairly permanent.

Al

[evansjw44]

If you can find it, try clear Cuprinol. The old stuff had penta-clorophenol which id a grat preservative. I don;t know what the new stuff has in it. I still have some of the old stuff. If you have the rub rail off you might be able to slip some CPES into the core of the plywood without soaking the venier or at least not soaking where its not covered by the rub rail.

As for sealing the rub rail I am a big user of 214 bedding coumpound. It doesn't last forever but you can take things apart that are sealed with 214. One suggestion, use 1026 on the underside of the rub rail before you install it. That slows the rate at which the wood absorbs the oil in the bedding.

[kmjohnson]

Thank you both for the input.
If you keep this up I may become an expert.

I have ordered the Klean strip wood bleach and already have the Interlux filler stain 573 and can't wait to get started.

Ken

[Al Benton]

Ken,

Tuesday evening I visited our local Ole' Boys Boat Club shop (it's a branch of our local ACBS Chapter). I hadn't been there for a while but wasn't surprised to see them working on some project.

As it turns out they have 2) V-15 Utility, both 1957 models being worked on. Talk about coincidence. Both have a white strip at the shear with the angled white portion at the aft and with 3) stars. The rest of the topsides are natural (stained). The 1955 model is shown in The Essential Guide which obviously had all natural topsides and decks and two piece windshield. They had copper bronze bottom with a white boot stripe which these 57's have. Both have CC-A 4-cyl engines.

One of them is mostly stripped already and the transom plywood is removed. A narrow strip (2-1/2 to 3") of plywood at the chine (side but below waterline) was cut away for replacement.

It will be interesting to follow this progress. Maybe I can talk them into using the CPES over the stain/sealer on one and not on the other. Some 20 years from now we'll compare notes, LOL.

Al

[kmjohnson]

Al

Great to here there are some other boats like mine out there. I miss stated the year of my boat in the first posting. I had been lead to believe it was a 1955 but I recently received the factory info from my hull # V-15330 and discovered it is a 1956. Mine never had the white strip you mentioned and it has a one piece windshield.

I know this is on another thread, sort of evolved from the water stain topic.

There is no information on the card regarding floor covering or upholstery, just that the upholstery was back ordered. Most pictures I have seen show red upholstery the seat cushions just sit on the seat but the seat back upholstery snaps onto the deck or trim. I have what may be the original seat cushions however they are aqua blue. Not sure I like the color but I am not sure how I can find out if they are original.

Thanks again on the finishing question. I may go ahead and use the CPES on the entire hull as I believe that it will never have to be striped down to bare wood ever again and I am sure that the CPES would solve the potential rot reoccurrence. But first I have to see if I can get a good stain job after treating the water stain.

I would love to hear more about the Cavaliers at your local club.

Thank,
Ken

[Wilson Wright]

There were two 15' Cavaliers at one of the Florida (Cypress Gardens, I think) shows 10 or 12 years ago. There were pictures in The Brass Bell. Richard Hillebrand restored one of them.

[Al Benton]

They are very nice boats and fairly easy to maintain. Chris-Craft made nearly 1100 of them and quite a few have been kept going over the years. The Cavaliers seem to survive years of neglect. This is probably due to Chris-Craft's insistance on top quality marine plywood. As with the solid wood, the suppliers produced what was known in the industry as "Chris-Craft Grade Marine Plywood", the very best grade available.

Al

[Al Benton]

Back to the subject of CPES and mahogany veneer plywood, I'm going to recommend that it can be applied over well cured Interlux stain/filler. This follows some recent communication with both Steve Smith and Don Danengerg on the subject.

On the subject of re-finishing, if that were to become necessary (only after years of neglect), the surface of the plywood can be cleaned using a heat gun. The CPES impregnated stain/filler will soften and can be carefully scraped off the veneer surface and then re-finished after very light sanding.

The CPES that cures below the surface will remain indeffinately (which is a good thing) but the surface can be cleaned up and re-finished.

The advantages of using CPES, especially in old wood, is its ability to penetrate deeply and remain flexible. Thus, it restores old wood as Steve intended when he invented the product. When applied to new wood it still penetrates, thus, improves the longevity of it as well. It stays in the wood indeffinately.

Here's the part that needs to be clear regarding my opening recommendation. This application works well using the Interlux stain/filler. Not being a chimical engineer and not knowing the chemical composition of their product as compared to other brands, I couldn't say one way or the other if the results would be the same using another product. You're on your own there.

CPES does indeed penetrate through Interlux stain/filler after it's cured, welding it to the wood (solid or veneer)surface and yielding some additional protection to the wood as well. When varnish is applied to the CPES before it is totally cured, it too is bonded to the overall finish which creates a base that lasts much longer than other finish treatments that I know of.

Al

[Chris Dorflinger]

One more tip to throw at you. Be careful not to work the Smith's too much in any area as it can soften the stain enough to smear it around leaving a blotchy look.

[maritimeclassics]

Used CPES a couple times over stain and will never do that again! If you do my suggestion is to spray it and you better wear protective gear. Don’t feel it’s necessary as I have a lot confidence in the sealer and varnish I use.

[Al Benton]

If the stain/sealer isn't cured, spraying is not going to help. To each his own. A traditional finish is a fine choice when properly maintained.

Al

[maritimeclassics]

I let my stain set for a week; in my opinion the CPES is just too hot almost like acetone or a lacquer thinner, I guess I just don’t understand the benefit to it. To me it seems like you would have a problem with the varnish not adhering to the wood or moisture damage over time if you used it or not, it may buy you a little time but not completely eliminate the underlying problems such as improper bedding of your planking. I found on my test pieces that it also gives the color of the wood a darker tinge next to the side with just sealer and varnish. Don’t get me wrong I buy this stuff a lot, but I use it on all my bottom planking (both sides) and inner planking of the hull and never on the outside of the boat above the waterline. I guess I’m just old school like that.

[Al Benton]

Mike,

I highly respect your work and your methods. I may have sounded a little blunt with the last comment. I think the solvents in CPES may be hotter than acetone, not sure.

It has worked well on my cruiser which lives outside year round and doesn't get as much TLC as she deserves. The results are that areas with CPES look like new finish compared to the areas not yet finished with it. The goal this summer include finishing the remaining areas with the CPES over Interlux stain/filler.

The CPES doesn't darken the tone so much in my experiences with it. No more so than wetting the sealed and stained wood with varnish. I did side by side experiments both ways on old wood before I used it and they both appear to be the same tone to my untrained eyes.

As mentioned elsewhere, I did not like the finish when the old wood was CPES treated prior to staining but looks great when applied after staining is done.

CPES does penetrate through cured Interlux stain/filler. This means that it does bond the finish to the wood fibers. If the first coat of varnish is applied before the CPES completely cures, it is also bonded to it as well.

It, like most others, don't last forever and need the UV protection to extend its life. Even exposed CPES will oxidise and break down eventually, just not as fast as stain alone.

The fact that CPES penetrates Interlux stain/filler must indicate that the solvents somewhat liquify the stain/filler, even after it's fully cured, although it hasn't presented a problem for me, except when I applied it too soon. What a mess that was!

Al