Please read: All about the Brass Bell, all in one place!

[Al Benton]

We're beginning to sound like a bunch of politicians just before election who's favorite trick is to misquote his (her) opponent. Those were good, guys. Ha Ha!

[alex]

Bill:

I've been remiss in visiting www.chris-craft.org in recent weeks. So your posting re membership and dues and Brass Bell is news to me.

I'll keep it short and sweet.

Yours is the only club and magazine to which I subscribe, for which cost is such a bargain, I have zero objection to an increase.

In fact owing to the quality of the site, the magazine, and the network, I think such an increase is entirely warranted.

In this age of things like smaller cereal boxes, lesser service, reduced quality, and hidden fees for everything from seemingly everyone, Chris-Craft Club is one, out-in-the-open increase I am happy (word choice intentional) to pay.

Alex Watson

[Horstuff]

Agreed. Whatever the actual numbers are (5%, 2%, etc), just let those who choose to pay the increase pay the increase, and give them some little special perk for doing so (a free hat or something). Those who choose not to pay the increase continue to get what they signed up for.

The issue here is not how to make it fair across the board, it's how to get the BB back on track. I am willing to pay more than somebody else because I would be doing more than my part (karma, feel-good, etc) but the biggest reason is that I would have the BB. And as of now, it sounds like I may never see it unless I pay more.

If the number of people who pay the increase isn’t sufficient to get the BB on track, refund their money and re-assess.

[Ken Miller]

.....You could easily justify any dues increase by increasing the value of the service offered.....

I really don't think that is fair to the regular/special contributors or editors of the Brass Bell. I would challenge you to find a finer marque publication, hobby periodical, club newsletter, etc. Without qualification, there is NONE. As to the other major benefit of membership dues, the BOAT BUZZ forum, it casts a fairly huge shadow in the classic boat hobby. To my knowledge the ACBS shut down its forum due to controversy and in-fighting. I read it only a few times but I don't think there is a better place to field responses to particular questions or read at one's own convenience (to learn in general) than this forum. I'd challenge you to re-think the fairness of your above statement.

.....Things like actually delivering the BB in the same quarter as the issue is titled, actually doing the Buzz upgrades discussed a year ago, getting more info into an archive that is even easier for members to use.....

I think you need to consider that Bill has told us that the two overdue issues have been published, just not mailed. If you feel like facilitating the transfer of information, help by offering to contribute to the content of an already outstanding publication.

....There are a lot of people paying ACBS $65 so I don't think the assumption they won't pay CCABC $65 is pretty suspect.....

I would agree with you there. The dues should be raised to a level that would provide for the regular services offered by the club.

.....Right now they are paying $35 a year and not getting anything.....

That $35 was for an entire year's membership. To read your appraisal of the situation, you'd think nothing was going on in that entire year. Yes, there are problems, obviously, but it's not like dues were going into a hole in someone's back yard.

Ken Miller.

[mfine]

.....You could easily justify any dues increase by increasing the value of the service offered.....

I really don't think that is fair to the regular/special contributors or editors of the Brass Bell. I would challenge you to find a finer marque publication, hobby periodical, club newsletter, etc. Without qualification, there is NONE. As to the other major benefit of membership dues, the BOAT BUZZ forum, it casts a fairly huge shadow in the classic boat hobby. To my knowledge the ACBS shut down its forum due to controversy and in-fighting. I read it only a few times but I don't think there is a better place to field responses to particular questions or read at one's own convenience (to learn in general) than this forum. I'd challenge you to re-think the fairness of your above statement.

You completely missed the point. I have no issue with the quality of the Bell. I have been told the Bell is a key reason for membership for 99.5% of the members, and assuming that is true, I think the club should do whatever it takes to deliver the Bell on time ALL the time.

As for the Buzz, I'd pay a lot more than $35 for the information on here. I would just like to see some of the back end technology upgrades get more money and attention because I personally think the Buzz is 100 X more valuable than any printed magazine could ever be. For now I appear to be in the minority, but I think if this club has a long future, it is going to be rooted online, not in print and I think more of our dues should be invested there rather than sent to a print shop and the post office. Since a vast majority disagree and seem to want to keep the Bell as is for now, I think we should raise dues enough to do both.

.....Things like actually delivering the BB in the same quarter as the issue is titled, actually doing the Buzz upgrades discussed a year ago, getting more info into an archive that is even easier for members to use.....

I think you need to consider that Bill has told us that the two overdue issues have been published, just not mailed. If you feel like facilitating the transfer of information, help by offering to contribute to the content of an already outstanding publication.

I am considering that since I joined, every issue of the Bell has been late. We are now in mid-November, so I would have expected to receive a fall issue by now. By my count we are three issues behind and counting, two of which seem to be coming soon. Will there also be a double mailing for Fall and Winter, and when? All the content means nothing if it is sitting on a pallet somewhere or has not been sent to the printer yet.

As far as I am concerned a printed Bell is less useful than PDF files in a searchable archive so I think all the printing and mailing expense that is responsible for the delay is also wasteful and silly. Obviously most of the members seem to disagree and want the printed Bell. Fine, but either way, I think it is extremely important to deliver on time if the Bell is going to be a signature product. Its just good business.

.....Right now they are paying $35 a year and not getting anything.....

That $35 was for an entire year's membership. To read your appraisal of the situation, you'd think nothing was going on in that entire year. Yes, there are problems, obviously, but it's not like dues were going into a hole in someone's back yard.

If I was one of the 99% who treasure the printed Bell above all else, my view would be that I have not gotten anything for this year's membership. As I said, I value the Buzz and archive so I feel I have gotten more than my moneys worth (and I contributed more than $35 so far this year), but we are coming up on 9 months since I last received a Bell. In fact, I have not received a Bell since I renewed in the Spring, and I still have not received all four issues from last year's dues. For those who don't use the online resources, it must seem like pretty much nothing has been delivered for an entire years worth of dues. If the Bell was the product I was buying, I would be pretty pissed off. Again, bad business, and no excuses for it. If the costs are going up, dues need to go up. We have a membership that is willing and able to pay more if the club keeps up its end of the bargain. Just do it.

[mfine]

We're beginning to sound like a bunch of politicians just before election who's favorite trick is to misquote his (her) opponent. Those were good, guys. Ha Ha!

I would say this is resembling politics because the problem is obvious, the solution is fairly clear, and we have months of discussion but no action.

[Matt Chapter]

I would say this is resembling politics because the problem is obvious, the solution is fairly clear, and we have months of discussion but no action.

Very glib! This made me laugh.

I'm reasonably sure there are fresh Brass Bells in a secret location. I might be reading between the lines as well, but I think I understand there to be a dues increase en route. Both of which I think are cool and necessary.

Back to the larger problem, I think it is unreasonable to expect membership to grow much. Even though these boats were made for quite a length of time, there are less and less each year, and fewer owners willing to take on the necessary maintenance tasks. With that in mind, the dues should be set at a point where the website can be maintained. I am in favor of setting dues at a point to include the Brass Bell as well, the difference between the two being the website is more informational discussion and the Brass Bell more infotainment. I can also understand those who don't want the Brass Bell or think it's outdated.. those folks could buy a couple gallons of gas instead.

[Chad Durren]

The ability to change the font COLOR in postings is a benefit that we members take for granted. This feature alone is worth $35. I for one would like to see more COLOR usage on the Buzz. Ken, you stick with RED, and Matt, please use something other than BLACK next time.

We're a damn boat club, we should be having more fun.

[Al Benton]

Truth is that most of the suggestions that have been made here are long-term ones. Raising dues may be needed and I'm sure that Bill and the team are assessing this possibility as we speak.

As you may recall, this discussion, probably in one of the other threads, began with a plea for immediate attention to a "cash-flow" situation that existed. It kept the Spring 2011 Brass Bell from being printed. To me it was not direct indication that the club was flat broke and couldn't pay its bills, it indicated that an unusually large and unexpected amount of club funds that were necessary to upgrade and and maintain the club's on-line presence before it collapsed.

With a normal flow of member's dues going into the treasury this may have been completely unnoticed by us. However, the normal flow of almost 900 renewals that was expected did not come. In fact Bill reported later that the normal flow was less than half (if my memory serves me). Thus, the cash-flow that would have been seen the Spring issue in our mailboxes much sooner.

A dues increase sort of sprung into the forefront as the solution. A dues increase obviously wouldn't fix immediate cash flow at all, unless Bill could find a lender that would accept a future dues increase as collateral, or a printer that didn't expect to be paid for 6 months. I don't think the USPS extends credit either.

Is a dues increase needed? Probably, but the CCABC hasn't asked us for one yet. They will soon, especially now that our leaders see that we're more than willing to accept an increase. Well, we that frequent Boat Buzz.

Let the leaders analyze the need for one, the effect on retention of membership and the benefits and tell us what we can expect. Immediate help (due to cash-flow) was the initial plea and I'm not sure that many responded to it. Thanks to those who did!

[Horstuff]

If it was figured out how many people want the BB (via polling here), then those figures could be used to determine printing/shipping costs based on that volume of issues needing to go out.

Then, divide that number by the people who answered yes in the poll.

Have another poll among those who were willing to pay extra for the BB, asking if the increase in dues (determined via the above method) is too much... if it is, then no dice and time for plan B. If it's not, charge them their share of the total and send them the BB.

[RRGadow]

It also seems that everyone is considering the forum the most valuable part of membership...keep in mind that the buzz doesnt cost anything to the club,...so we can still get our magazine!

[BrokenRule2]

I've been following the Buzz but not posting a lot due to my workload.

My comments for this subject:

A small dues increase would be acceptable to cover increased cost, do not join the race to the bottom and lower the content or quality.

Have an opt out option for mailing the Brass Bell and just download the PDF.

Offer the Brass Bell for sale via iTunes (perhaps it would result in reaching new members) and offset the production cost.

Have an option for making a small financial contribution to support the Bell or Buzz (some forums have an icon symbol forum supporters).

Provide PDF back issues (as a complete PDF not single pages) and offer a full year for a reasonable price and a nice price for the complete collection of back issue - like wooden boat offers. You could have a member and nonmember price.


Offer a membership gift certificate that allows me to purchase a membership and give the certificate to the new Chris-Craft owner at my marina. With a member number the person can log on and complete the membership. Perhaps a hard copy card or email?

And for those that want to pay more and not receive any additional value, or believe the value of the club is greater than the dues,I recall a classic line from President Bush to those wanting to pay more taxes: The IRS takes cash, check or credit card. How about a PayPal button to send a few greenbacks if we feel so inclined?

I joined for the Boat Buzz and all the files and information contained on the website. Some of my magazines come by mail, others by email and I buy a year (or more) via CD-ROM. The Brass Bell lives up to the quality of Chris-Craft. When the first issue arrived I was blown away and renewed my membership.

But the club is more than a magazine, it is documenting history, sharing stories and guiding the future so future generations will have the interest, desire and information to care for these boats and not make furniture or bars out of their grandparents old woody.

Just some thoughts,

Mike

[Al Benton]

Ryan, any internet presence represents cost to some group or individual. In our case it represents real cost to our club. It's free to anyone in the world that wants to view it but the privilege of leaving replies and to add new posts is included in your membership. Our dues pay the real cost involved for developing it, storing over 36,000 searchable posts and upgrading and maintaining the equipment that presents it on line. So there's a price tag on it and for all of the other on-line features that we enjoy. Part of that very cost may have caused the cash-flow situation (or hump) that has delayed recent Brass Bell issues that I just talked about.

While that subject is fresh, I might inject that extensive upgrading and replacement of outdated computer equipment and changes to faster wide-band internet connections, etc. isn't an annual event or one that can be totally prepared for in a reasonable annual budget. Unusual circumstances can and do catch a club like ours by total surprise, and obviously did. I'm confident this club has depth in loyal members and will get over this temporary hump and on with its mission.

[mcisaac inc]

there are 3 things we need to change in our club. the first is raise dues, secondly ,mail the BB. and third a a a a owe,owe well oops ,well um , well i'm not , well i guess, never mind....................markmcisaacinc

[mfine]

Maintaining a web presence like this is not free, and not even cheap.

As for a donation button, there is one on the club home page and you can send money via paypall to help out the short term crunch. I did a while back and i will send a bit more and I hope most of you who agree with a dues increase will too. Let's put our money where our mouths our.

Donations aside, a dues increase sounds necessary. I haven't seen the books, but this does not sound like just a short term cash flow issue. The server and software expenses should be planned for, and the club should have reserves to draw upon for the unexpected. Unless there was some serious mismanagement, the club has been running on too thin a budget to end up in this spot. There is/was no need for that. Raise dues so you can run comfortably and deliver your product even if there are some unexpected bumps in the road.

It sounds like it has been five years since the last dues increase which may have been two or three years too long. I don't see how waiting several more months or for that matter days helps any. Unless no one is renewing, the sooner you raise dues, the sooner you get back on track.

[BrokenRule2]

As for a donation button, there is one on the club home page and you can send money via paypall to help out the short term crunch. I did a while back and i will send a bit more and I hope most of you who agree with a dues increase will too. Let's put our money where our mouths our.

I feel so stupid, never noticed the DONATE to the left of the log in. I have made a donation for overlooking this :

I shall tax myself each time I write something dumb or find something useful. Therefore I should be broke by the end of the year!

Mike

[Horstuff]

Maybe have a donation structure like NPR, with each level of donation offering a higher membership ranking and reward. Nothing fancy, just a certificate in the mail thanking you for becoming a gold, platinum, plutonium, krypton or whatever member, along with some SMALL token, the highest being a book or DVD or something.

It's worked for public radio since the beginning of time. Those who choose to support it get goodies and the magazine, those who don't just ignore the pledge drives and get the basics. Only difference is, the government is probably not gonna step in and help us with this.

[JimF]

I too had never seen the donate button. Maybe it needs to be larger!

[Al Benton]

I pointed it out to some last August when this whole Cash Flow situation surfaced. The button was hard to find then too. I knew it existed somewhere but couldn't find it until I needed to log on to search deeper. There it was right next to the log on button. How did I miss that???

[mfine]

Ideally it should be visible on all pages, including the Buzz. It is only there on the club home screen which I almost never go to. I rarely go to the Buzz home either. I use direct links like a bookmark to unread Buzz posts and therefore I never saw the Donate link either until you pointed it out.

[RRGadow]

Ryan, any internet presence represents cost to some group or individual. In our case it represents real cost to our club. It's free to anyone in the world that wants to view it but the privilege of leaving replies and to add new posts is included in your membership. Our dues pay the real cost involved for developing it, storing over 36,000 searchable posts and upgrading and maintaining the equipment that presents it on line. So there's a price tag on it and for all of the other on-line features that we enjoy. Part of that very cost may have caused the cash-flow situation (or hump) that has delayed recent Brass Bell issues that I just talked about.

While that subject is fresh, I might inject that extensive upgrading and replacement of outdated computer equipment and changes to faster wide-band internet connections, etc. isn't an annual event or one that can be totally prepared for in a reasonable annual budget. Unusual circumstances can and do catch a club like ours by total surprise, and obviously did. I'm confident this club has depth in loyal members and will get over this temporary hump and on with its mission.

Hey Al...I have to respectably disagree...Gadow guitars has a website and discussion forum. We pay $115 per year for hosting. We do some maintanence as required but it basically takes care of its self...thats not to say there isnt some expense to it...but nothing like people may think....sure their has to be some bump in memory storage, but thats just a call to the host and paying alittle more....there shouldnt be any type of computers and such involved.

[Al Benton]

Ryan, you are partially correct. Hosting for a forum is only part of the expense and I couldn't tell you how the club has this one set up, if it's hosted or in-house or the cost for the software, etc.

Boat Buzz is only one entity of the club's internet existence. Others include the Archive, Trading Dock, the Hull Registry, Classic Boat Wiki, Member Directory and others. Part of the recent major expense that Bill did tell us about earlier this year was in transferring all of these entities to an in-house system, possibly an all new system of servers and back-up services. Can't do all of that on a notebook with a plug-in Seagate hard drive or two.

Maintenance and operation of all this is reasonable once the initial system is paid for but there are still on-going expenses for hardware breakdowns, internet access and occasional software tweaking.

When Bill is ready he'll no doubt tell us why this untimely expense was necessary that unfortunately threw the Brass Bell out of seasonal sequence. He'll probably also give us an idea of the club's annual budget which could call for a dues increase in order to assure timely delivery of all our benefits and to maintain and upgrade the equipment that provided them.

[rannamy]

I've recently cancelled my printed subscription to National Geographic, instead choosing to read, or should I say experience it, on my Ipad. I will still financially support NG as always, but now I recieve a considerably richer experience from their great work because of the Ipad. I will not be inclined to make a similar decision regarding the Brass Bell(even though I love having the PDF copy on my Ipad), because the BB is just one of the many benefits of belonging to this club.

I joined this club because of my need for help regarding my old boat. I consider it a huge and valuable privilege to have access to the information offered by this club. I feel it's value will increase as time goes by and wooden boats become even more of a rarity.

I love the Brass Bell! It's print quality is itself, a rare thing these days; as is the depth of subject matter. Never, in my wildest dreams, did I expect to recieve such a comprehensive package of benefits as I now recieve from this association. The "package" provided in lue of my measly $35 yearly dues is rediculously underpriced IMHO!

I could go on and on here, but suffice it to say that whatever needs to be done to properly finance the continued efforts of this group, will be matched by my willingness to write out a larger check... just waiting for a decision to be made by those who are responsible for this amazing product!

Randy

'49 33' CC Deluxe Enclosed Cruiser

[jfrprops]

Randy if you boat work is up to the level of your written work....you are indeed a craftsman.

well said,

John in Va.

[craigjudge]

I have a couple possible solutions. The first is on the income side. Whenever a member declines to renew due to selling his boat, there should be a dialogue with the member to gain the contact information of the new owner. What better prospect than an owner of a "new" old boat?
The other is on the expense side. The Brass Bell is beautiful. It's like Double Gun or Rodders Journal. But the fact is, it's expensive and frankly most readers are digitally inclined these days. I appreciate the content as much as the visual aspect of the magazine. Therefore, I would be just as happy with a monthly or semi-monthly newsletter/magazine in a less expensive format along with an "Annual Journal" of Brass Bell Quality with perhaps even more content. This format would cost less, keep members informed more often, and increase advertising opportunities by 200%
Speaking for myself, I'd be fine with just a Yearly Journal and more web content.

[Al Benton]

Craig, you have some interesting thoughts that got my attention. I didn't reply sooner because they needed to sink in a bit.

Your statement that says "...most readers are digitally inclined these days" is only true to a certain degree. It's true that quite a few more of us may be getting there but I believe this club is still a ways from being totally comfortable with not getting a quarterly Brass Bell. I'm thinking that the idea is certainly turning some eyebrows though and has merit at some level or compromise.

The thought of creating a digital product that is interesting to members and others outside the club could be a valuable boost to ad sales and could be worthy of a good deal of thought.

[jfrprops]

I did not keep up with this very large post/topic as carefully as I should have. I only go on the home page and check the FOUR items that have appeared on the Buzz since last I checked...always daily...but at times a thread moves so fast it gets ahead of me...easy to do.
Still this is an interesting topic.

My statement: Consider this:

State of the hobby:

Matt Smith is the new age Jonathan Wilson.

When Jon started WoodenBoat Mag. it slowly TOOK OFF...until it became a publishing phenom against all odds...There was HUGE interest in classic boats.
Woodyboater.com has experienced the same growth curve, that is the future. Look at WoodenBoat today, vastly improved stories and writing...and a GROWING audience, can that be true for the Bell...limited as it is to our CC's?


This will doubtless be a subject of discussion for some time, and at the Crab Shack this weekend for Boat Buzz Unplugged.

John in Va.

[Bill Basler]

I am seeing some reasons for optimism in the past few weeks. The Summer Brass Bell is complete and at the printer. You will soon be getting an email from me, letting you all know where you can download the issue. Our plan is to package Spring and Summer together and mail in one mailing. This will hopefully allow us to save just enough on postage that we go we stay in the black.

Also, it should stand to reason that I am immediately moving on to the Fall 2011 issue. We will turn the Fall issue around just as soon as we can. My hope is that renewals will rebound and funds will come in quick enough to keep pace with the faster printing schedule.

To this, we have all had considerable discussion here as to what form future issues of the Brass Bell should take. While the opinions offered here are varied, the opinions that I have been tallying via other mediums, i.e.: Email, phone calls, and hand-written notes, seem to express a strong interest in keeping the Bell in print...as some say...at whatever cost it takes.

Now, this is where it gets tricky. I do feel that the time is upon us where we have to consider increasing our annual dues. Following this post, you will see a poll. Please respond to this poll very quickly, as I need to put something in place on this issue immediately, before we start amassing more printing bills.

Also, we will soon be making an announcement that we are changing our Brass Bell production methods considerably. We need to take a good hard look at how our issues are created and change our production processes as necessary. Largely, this has to do with how we are acquiring content. A more proactive approach where we are working 3-4 issue out is needed. More on this to come.