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Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

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Packard8
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Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:43 pm

Hello Folks,

I am a new member here who recently acquired a 1947(?) CC 22' Utility Sedan, # U-22-1052. In seeking data on the boat I enquired at the Mariners Museum for a Hull Card but was informed that all the records are in deep storage due to building renovations and will not be available for at least one year. This is a "white side" hull with cedar planking, mahogany deck, hardtop and interior. The original Hercules 6 cyl was lost years ago, but I have a Packard (one of my other hobbies) 374 cid V-8 marine conversion (done by Andres Marine, Stockton Ca in the mid 1950's) that I plan on installing. I'll post some pix of the boat as soon I can get out of the storage space. I'll attempt to post some pix of the engine.

Any input as to the year of Mfg would be helpful.

Best,

John
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drrot
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by drrot » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:13 pm

Looks like it would spin a left handed prop. If so I would stay away from it. Find something that spins a right handed prop.
If not would be fun :D
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1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Bilge Rat » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:33 pm

Depending on the engine box configuration on a sedan U-22, you will find a new engine box will have to be manufactured to accommodate this V-8's profile. You may want to do some estimating on just how big the box would have to be first, as if it's too big you might lose a lot of cockpit and walk around space.
1966 Lyman Cruisette 25 foot "Serenity Now!"
1953 Chris Craft Sportsman 22 foot "Summerwind"

Packard8
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:46 pm

Thanks for the replies. I believe it is right hand rotation, I'll check. I'll also do a mockup of the required doghouse for the V8 and see how it fits in the boat. Attached are some photos of the boat I took today, it's been in storage for 25 years and need a good cleanup to see whats there. No major structural issues have jumped out, but you never know until you get into it.

I'm also curious about the hardtop, as the photos I've seen of CC sedans are much more streamlined. Perhaps it is a later boatyard add-on, it looks professionally built with matching mahogany.

I appreciate the info!
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by joanroy » Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:29 pm

According to The Essential Guide by Jerry Conrad, your boat is a 22' Sportsman built in a series of hull numbers U-22-001 to U-22-2082. This model was produced from 1946 to 1954. A streamlined ventilating cabin top was offered as an option. That cabin top could be a very rare option. Interesting boat. Do you have the original hardware etc.?

That old Packard's a nice motor, but probably a lot more power than your boat needs or wants. Engines offered for this model were, Chris Craft K, M, ML, MBL and Chrysler SM7, SM6, M27, M26.

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Greg Wallace » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:04 am

I agree, looks like a U22 but I think hardtop was added by a third entity post production. If, however, the hull card reveals that this configuration was factory produced you are likely the owner of the most unique 22 ever.

Its too bad you will have to wait to find out.

I think the Packard is way cool. Will be a tough fit though and impossible with current exhaust configuration.

I also agree with Jim on the apparent rotation being less than ideal. If you are determined however it could be fine or an expensive experiment.

I am a fan of the painted U22 (especially). Welcome to the society of firewood recyclers.
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by JimF » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:25 am

My 25' Sportsman is powered by a 454 with left hand rotation and I have no issues other than having to remember it backs to the right. Have other people had problems with left hand rotation?
1930 Chris-Craft Model 100 20' "MOXIE"
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by tph » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:30 am

I repowered my u=22 with a left hand 283. Used it for six years and never had a problem. I have also built quite a few
racing runabout replicas powered with new mercruisers that are left hand and had no issues. Just dock to starboard.
tph

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:07 pm

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

The boat is for sure a U-22 as the S/N is present in at least 3 locations that I have found so far. I am leaning towards the hardtop being a later addition, too bad that the museum records are inaccessible for so long. I realize the Packard V8 will be a tight fit and the exhaust will require a few 90* elbows and some shortening to fit. The shaft & prop will obviously need to be matched to the engine, estimated to produce 325 HP and 400+ lb ft of torque. I would be interested to hear from other U22 owners with S/N's close to this one, I saw an advert for a 1947 with the S/N of U-22-11xx.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge,

John
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Packard8
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:15 pm

joanroy wrote:According to The Essential Guide by Jerry Conrad, your boat is a 22' Sportsman built in a series of hull numbers U-22-001 to U-22-2082. This model was produced from 1946 to 1954. A streamlined ventilating cabin top was offered as an option. That cabin top could be a very rare option. Interesting boat. Do you have the original hardware etc.?

That old Packard's a nice motor, but probably a lot more power than your boat needs or wants. Engines offered for this model were, Chris Craft K, M, ML, MBL and Chrysler SM7, SM6, M27, M26.
Thanks for the production info. The previous owner "thinks" he has the hardware "somewhere", but I'm not holding my breath. As is typical with old car and old boat projects the new owner, filled with enthusiasm starts removing everything that is or is not bolted down, loses interest and unfortunately loses parts. Perhaps someone somewhere has a U-22 that is beyond repair and is willing to sell parts.

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Bilge Rat » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:28 pm

That hardtop is very interesting! If you do decide to upgrade the engine to a V-8 and you would no longer need the old doghouse, you might offer it for sale here. Some of us U-22 owners doing a restoration are not fortunate enough to have an original, even if its only for a pattern. I am fortunate in having the original which I will be reusing once I get the old CC 327 V-8 out of the boat and finish the restoration.
1966 Lyman Cruisette 25 foot "Serenity Now!"
1953 Chris Craft Sportsman 22 foot "Summerwind"

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:50 pm

Bilge Rat wrote:That hardtop is very interesting! If you do decide to upgrade the engine to a V-8 and you would no longer need the old doghouse, you might offer it for sale here. Some of us U-22 owners doing a restoration are not fortunate enough to have an original, even if its only for a pattern. I am fortunate in having the original which I will be reusing once I get the old CC 327 V-8 out of the boat and finish the restoration.
Thanks, good idea to save the old doghouse as it appears to be in good shape. I'm told that the last U-22's were made in 1954, and 327's were not made until the 1962 model year, so I assume it fit under the original doghouse? Does your boat have dual exhaust thru-hulls or does it employ a "Y" to a single thru-hull?

Thanks for your input.

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Don Vogt » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:51 pm

unless the hull card indicates a custom hardtop, it would be a later add on. that is definitely not the ventilating cabin that was optional with that model.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by joanroy » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:59 pm

Don, do you know of or have a photo of the original U-22 optional cabin roof? I'd love to see what one really looked like.

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:17 pm

joanroy wrote:Don, do you know of or have a photo of the original U-22 optional cabin roof? I'd love to see what one really looked like.
joanroy, here is a pic of a factory hardtop:

https://buy.antiqueboat.com/utilities/1 ... -1178.html

I am pretty confident that the hardtop on my boat is a later add-on. It was done with good craftsmanship & materials but I doubt it is original to the boat.

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Don Vogt » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:33 pm

that's the custom sedan, where the hardtop is integral to the boat. the u22 with the optional ventilating cabin has more of an add on look than the custom, but they are somewhat similar in overall appearance.
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Don Vogt » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:38 pm

my earlier response seems to have been lost in cyberspace. there was a discussion on the buzz a while back mainly between me and brian robinson about comparing the u22 option and the top of the custom sedan. they are different but somewhat similar. I will see if i can find that discussion and whether there was a picture. i dont have the conrad book here, left it at the lake, but i recall there is a picture of the prewar version in it., not exactly the same as post war, as i recall but similar.
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by joanroy » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:27 am

In Conrad's book the 1940-1942 22 foot Delux Utility page does show a photo of an optional Navy top, but it looks like a canvas top similar to the optional canvas Navy top on my Red and White. I think there's an outside chance that Packards top could be an original???. It's nicely done, and to my eye looks appropriate and fits the simple clean styling of the U-22. Of course, if it is an option, the top could have been factory built and dealer/owner installed.

Packard, do you know anything about the boats history? With the top and the duel lights it looks like it may have been used commercially in some way. Perhaps a Harbormasters or patrol boat?

Don, I think the prewar boat your referring to as an example is the 21' Utility Delux built 1937-1939. Can't find a photo of the post war 22' optional cabin top.

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Don Vogt » Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:20 am

joanroy, a quick search found a couple of things in the ccabc archive. Check out the 1941 cc fleet brochure, p. 11 for a picture of the pre war ventilating cabin on the utility. also the 1947 cc catalog has a picture of the 25' sportsman cabin on p.31. I think you will see why packard8's cabin is a non cc add on.

Didnt find the blog where brian and I were discussing this. but you can see these cabins had only two front windows and a padded roof. one of the differences between the custom sedan and the ventilating version is the padding goes around the custom front windows while in the ventilating version, there is metal trim around the front windows. that is an easy way to tell the difference.
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:39 am

joanroy wrote:

Packard, do you know anything about the boats history? With the top and the duel lights it looks like it may have been used commercially in some way. Perhaps a Harbormasters or patrol boat?
joanroy, I was told by the fellow I bought it from (the guy in the photos) that the boat had been at Lake Fort Gibson, OK for the past 40+ years when he bought it and put it in storage around 1980. The story goes it was won in a poker game and the winner named it "Two Bit Booty", something to do with the two bit ante in the winning poker hand. The last owner bought it at an Army Corps of Engineers surplus auction. Presumably the Corps used it as a utility launch around the lake.

I agree with Don Vogt that the hardtop matches nothing I've seen in researching pre & post war CC utilities. It looks more like a design from the 1920's or 30's. I wish I could order the Hull Card as that would put the question to rest. If I proceed with a restoration I would need to perhaps find an unrepairable donor boat with the necessary parts (windshield, deck hardware etc) to put it back to the original open boat configuration.

In the past I've owned a few old wood boats at Fisherman's Wharf, SF. A 1958 36' Owens twin diesel Sportfisher, a WW2 Navy Whaleboat with a Buda DD diesel that was converted to a salmon troller, a Santa Cruz built 25' Westerbeke powered salmon troller and currently a Bolger Diablo skiff which I restored. Just so you folks know I'm not jumping into anything blind and I realize the potential head/heart aches :wink: .

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by JimF » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:34 am

Personally I love the top and would keep it even though it is likely not factory.it looks well done and suits the boat.
1930 Chris-Craft Model 100 20' "MOXIE"
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:38 pm

JimF wrote:Personally I love the top and would keep it even though it is likely not factory.it looks well done and suits the boat.
Thanks Jim. I am leaning towards keeping it also. It is well made and in good condition with the exception of some delamination at the aft edge of the top, which looks to be a simple fix.

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Bilge Rat » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:30 pm

Packard8:

The 327F 210HP was most definitely NOT an original, it was a 130HP M according to the 1953 hull card. Previous owner had the 327 "custom fitted" with much left to be desired on the fitting and mechanical connections. A strong running Chris Craft V-8 and hey, it's still in the Chris Craft family but not a good fit for this boat. It was connected with a 2-to-1 Y coupling exhausting out the original 3 1/2" exhaust pipe, at least what is left of the exhaust pipe. A well made but ugly engine box was fabricated for it.

Chris Craft didn't have a V-8 to offer until 1959 with the Chevy 283 185HP.
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:13 pm

Bilge Rat wrote:Packard8:

The 327F 210HP was most definitely NOT an original, it was a 130HP M according to the 1953 hull card. Previous owner had the 327 "custom fitted" with much left to be desired on the fitting and mechanical connections. A strong running Chris Craft V-8 and hey, it's still in the Chris Craft family but not a good fit for this boat. It was connected with a 2-to-1 Y coupling exhausting out the original 3 1/2" exhaust pipe, at least what is left of the exhaust pipe. A well made but ugly engine box was fabricated for it.

Chris Craft didn't have a V-8 to offer until 1959 with the Chevy 283 185HP.
Thanks for the info. Since the doghouse is upholstered anyway, I'm wondering if the original one could have sufficient width and height spliced into it and then recovered. Seems it would retain more of the original appearance than fabbing a new one. I did find some data on a similar Packard/Stokes V8 and it lists the weight @ 800 to 870 lbs, depending on the reverse gear. I believe the original Herc & CC engines with gears were close to that.
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Don Vogt » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:15 pm

while looking up the info on the cabin, i ran across a 47 price list and i believe it showed a couple engine options, one was a chrysler. dont remember the other one but can look up if you like. not sure of the relevance of what was done in '53 as to your boat but of course it was not a v8 in any event.
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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by joanroy » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:29 pm

John, thanks! I love the history of these old survivors. Sound like her past is rather interesting and somewhat sorted. Based on evidence presented by Don and others, I'm changing my theory. Could be a custom order by the Army Corps built to their specifications. Just a guess! Hull card will tell the tale. Great looking old U-22. Happy Boating!

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:09 pm

joanroy wrote:John, thanks! I love the history of these old survivors. Sound like her past is rather interesting and somewhat sorted. Based on evidence presented by Don and others, I'm changing my theory. Could be a custom order by the Army Corps built to their specifications. Just a guess! Hull card will tell the tale. Great looking old U-22. Happy Boating!
Yep joanroy, if only these old gals could talk! I think it is more likely that perhaps the Corps of Engineers may have contracted a local boatyard to add the odd-ball top as it looks more utilitarian than the "Ventilating Streamlined Hardtop" offered as a CC factory option. If it was used as a work boat the all weather shelter of the taller but shorter hardtop it now has makes more sense for a utility boat.

I'm still arguing with myself as to whether to tackle the project of refurbishing it and installing the Packard engine or pass it on to a younger and more ambitious person......somebody please talk me out of it! I have two old cars and an old house that are begging for my attention and $$$$$...... :shock: I wasn't looking for another wood boat project when the U-22 popped up at a price I couldn't refuse.

Best regards,

John

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by joanroy » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:15 am

John, you and I are in the same boat. Last year I picked up a 1948 25' Red and White Express Cruiser that needs full restoration. This on top of the 1948 36' Double Stateroom I already own and maintain myself along with the antique house and several old antique trucks. The only thing that saves me is having a 30 something son who's a skilled restoration contractor and every now and then I can talk him into helping me out with one of my rediculus projects. I've just gotten too damn old and there's only so much time in a life for restoration projects. But I love the old cruiser and my wife and family loves the old cruiser so the pleasure still outweighs the pain. The Red and White will be my restoration swan song. When the time comes I'll pass em on to the next generation. What happens after that is out of my control. Like to think they'll be appreciated and cared for.

My advice to you is if you love the U-22 restore it. If you don't, sell it. We all have to figure that one out on our own.

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Re: Info wanted on hull U-22-1052

Post by Packard8 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:23 am

@ joanroy...agreed, too many projects and too little time & resources don't mix well. I salute you for restoring and maintaining TWO old woodies. I know from experience it can be a career opportunity :) .

Over the weekend I'll pull the U-22 out of storage, remove the floorboards and "ice pick" it to see what I'm dealing with. I've already spotted a few instances of Billy-Bob & Cooter's handywork. Based on the findings I'll either go forward or sell the boat & engine to someone needing a project before I get too deep onto it.

Cheers,

John

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