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Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

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Warren Perry
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Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:47 am

Hello Everyone,

Perhaps someone can help. I bought a 18' double forward cockpit boat which has all the features of a Chriscraft, but the serial number doesn't follow suit. It has a 1942 K series engine, which has been identified by the Mariners Museum (very helpful) but the engine was not matched to a boat in their records, all the hardware matches a 1939-41 boat, 4-string 17" banjo steering wheel, windshield from 17' runabout pictures, mostly barrelback design (not as sweet as the 19 footers.) The serial number 184139R doesn't quite fall in line with the 1935 series of 18' boats. The serial numbers were in the locations found in Chriscraft boats of the era (engine stringer and back of the hatch cross member). It also only has two bear claw style engine vents which keeps it to as late as 1942 (law change) It has all silver faced gauges which may help identify the year. Mariners Museum was not able to identify the hull from records. Two things that make me think this was a prototype, custom order is the beam of the boat - 78" (much wider) and the gear shifter is curled to the side, almost as if to fit a more portly person. People have suggested that it is a newer Riviera because of the R in the serial#, but the body style more barrelback, seats are different etc. The previous owner had no luck in identifying it and the person before has long since passed away. Any help would be appreciated. I did look through the internet to see if there are any similar boats from the era as perhaps someone just borrowed the parts, I couldn't find anything. Any help would be great - Thanks, Warren!

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by joanroy » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:23 am

Sounds interesting? Post some photos.

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:45 am

IMG_0827.jpg
IMG_0836 (1).jpg
Dash
Front.jpg
Bow
unknown.jpg
Back Half
Attachments
top aft.jpg
Top Aft,

joanroy
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by joanroy » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:50 pm

It sure looks like a Chris Craft. The hull number could have been assigned for titling purposes. Are you sure about length and beam measurements? From your photos I'd guess 17' Deluxe Runabout, Double Cockpit Forward: 1940-1942. There are other members much more knowledgeable than me that I'm sure will help. Nice boat!

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Don Vogt
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Don Vogt » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:05 pm

the 17" barrelback kept the almost vertical stem of the 37-39 series, and the pointed bow, so on that ground it doesnt look like the standard 40-42 17' deluxe. the windshield frames, however were like the ones used then. Likewise the air scoops on the back are not the ones used (at least until the coast guard changed the vent requirements). those 18 series numbers were used in the earlier 18' split cockpit so that doesnt seem to work either.

so a prototype of some kind or something else seems to make sense? keep us posted on what you find out.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

Warren Perry
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:31 pm

Thank you.
Yes it is definately 18' within an inch. I forgot to mention that all the SS trim pieces are off but the bow piece is very similar to the '41 19'. I also forgot to mention that the 18' Riviera's I have seen on line also had the same style windshield.

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tkhersom
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by tkhersom » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:39 pm

Don't have any input, but it is very interesting and I want to follow this so I am commenting for that reason. :D
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by joanroy » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:38 pm

The windshield, bow light, lifting eyes, and their placement on deck match my guess. The vents are wrong , but placement correct.
The K is a1942 so that works. Just the size that stumps me. The hull looks a little Rivieraish, but nothing else looks right. Could be a larger prototype of the 17' Deluxe. I'd try to date the gauges and match dash configuration to narrow it down. Love a good boat ID mystery.

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Don Vogt
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Don Vogt » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:16 pm

One question is how does the "nose" compare in construction with the 19' custom barrelbacks and the post war custom? that might be a clue.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:10 pm

original dash.jpg
Original Dash - I have four gauges. The other hole beside the steering wheel is for a switch?

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:12 pm

nose.jpg
Nose construction
I have started to remove the varnish to prepare the boat for repair

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:14 pm

nose2.jpg
nose to nose
more detail of construction

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JimF
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by JimF » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:02 am

Silver gauges were 1941.
1930 Chris-Craft Model 100 20' "MOXIE"
1940 Chris-Craft Red and White 25' "Old Paint"
1946 Chris-Craft Sportsman 25' "CinCity"

Greg Wallace
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Greg Wallace » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:48 am

Very interesting and handsome design. There appears to be significant Chris Craft influence but I also see other manufacturer design elements. Shepard and Philbrick come to mind. The rake of the bow is not as "plumb" as I would expect to see on a Chris Craft of this era. The entry does not seem to be as deep with less flair and the freeboard appears to be greater forward and perhaps a little beamier. Dash does not look Chris Craft to me.

Chris Craft sold engines and hardware so I would not take this feature as a definitive Chris Craft attribute.

The Hull number does not look like what I would expect to see from Chris Craft but does suggest a professional build even though a talented amateur could certainly have decided to give his creation an official looking hull number.

If I were to speculate in decoding the Hull number? 18(length) 41(year built) 39(sequence or model designation) R (runabout).

At any rate this is a treasure for sure. If you are able to solve the mystery you will have an incredible story to go along with your boat.

Where found and history of ownership may provide clues.

Does anyone know if the Mariner's Museum has record of were "loose" engines were shipped?
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.

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steve bunda
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by steve bunda » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:40 am

Warren, If possible could you please post a few additional pictures.
- bung layout on decks, sides at main frames and plank butts
-inside bilge framing, under deck framing.
- both inside and outside transom

When you measured length , was it down center line , or sheer line at rub rail?

thanks,steve

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by jim g » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:27 pm

Greg Wallace wrote:
Does anyone know if the Mariner's Museum has record of were "loose" engines were shipped?
Yes they do.

Call the museum and give them the engine number. They can tell you what hull it went into or if it was sold as a complete motor to someone.

I had a 1948 25' Sportsman in the shop years ago. It was shipped with a MS engine. The engine that is in the boat is a MLS and is 10 years newer then the boat. When I was talking to the museum I mentioned it didn't have the original motor. They asked if it was a Chris Craft engine. I told them that it was and he asked for the engine number. I gave it to him. He looked on the master engine list. It turned out the MLS was sold to the dealer that sold the boat new 10 years before as a replacement engine.

Warren Perry
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:41 pm

Hi Greg,

The Gentleman at Mariners Museum did reply "Unfortunately the K engine s/n 22663, although in the log book, has no other entries except the number. It was clearly a 1942 engine (from the surrounding emgine entries) but that is all we know."

So the history of the engine remains a mystery.

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Don Vogt
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Don Vogt » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:48 pm

wonder what the engine info is on either side of the one in question? Might suggest that it went with one or the other at the same time?
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

Warren Perry
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:15 pm

A few more clues.

The two lower boards have been removed. The single exhaust came out this side.
Transom.jpg
Exposed - Chris Craft or other?
Here are some of the innards - automatic syphon and a rear hand shifter mounted right on the transmission, I am not sure why, perhaps the engine was sold for different applications?
Syphon and shifter.jpg
This is the serial number across the back of the hatch - Does someone have access to a Chris Craft # to check if the fonts are similar? I see that I forgot the "9" after the "R" It looks like the "18" was a sure thing then the other numbers added later, just from how hard they were struck,
serial number.jpg
Attachments
Under bow.jpg
Under the Bow - Curled shifter - someone wanted it sideways and the structure - Chris Craft or other?

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Don Vogt
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Don Vogt » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:20 pm

there's a thread here that discusses the cc number stamps with pictures of the numbers, etc. Look pretty much the same to me.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by jim g » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:06 am

Warren Perry wrote:
original dash.jpg
The hole to the right of the steering column is for a Clum switch. Chris Craft stopped using that style switch by either 1938 or 1939.

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by jim g » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:10 am

Gar Wood? They had some models that had this style bow before WW2.

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Don Vogt
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Don Vogt » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:35 am

interesting about the dash. cc dropped the clum switch in the 39 17 footer in Jan. 39, at which time they also dropped the 4 guage steward warner panel and went to individual instruments. so this boat has the individual instruments, but yet had the clum switch? you can check all this out in research related, pre war dash and panel gauge research.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by joanroy » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:43 am

Gar Wood makes the most sense due to their close ties with CC and then separation. Gar wood designed and built the hull and used Chris Craft venders for the hardware? I'd research the Gar Wood serial numbering system and try to get a match.

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steve bunda
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by steve bunda » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:40 am

The construction does not look and feel right for Chris Craft, the sides are 6 strakes tall. I think the bung lay out is a little different, but I still need to see fastener layout at plank butts and main frames. Is there inner planking round head screws?

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Don Vogt
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Don Vogt » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:47 am

not sure about the gar wood theory. Why would they need to do that? Isnt the nose more like a 19' custom? btw, cc painted the gas tanks and it appears this one is not painted?
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:18 pm

The tank had been replaced, the current one seems to have a galvanized coating. The connector pipe and cap have no markings, although they have some red coating on the inside.
tank cap.jpg

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:44 pm

Hi Steve, I hope these help.
boards butted.jpg
These look like the original boards. Whomever did these took the time to build a pattern into it.
Attachments
screws.jpg
These came in a cup with the boat. I did find "Robertson" screws but likely from someone repairing it here in Canada. There were also some flatheads
side, carriage bolts.jpg
frame has carriage bolts at each joint

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Don Vogt
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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Don Vogt » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:58 pm

i'm beginning to wonder about this. is there a narrow hull board between the full size hull planks and the covering boards? I dont think that's the way cc built them. on my model at least the covering board meets the full size hull planks. ??
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

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Re: Possible War Boat / Custom / Prototype - ???

Post by Warren Perry » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:01 pm

Before I forget, I just wanted to thank everyone for their knowledge and sharing. I am coming to the conclusion that Johnny Cash's dad worked for CC. "One piece at a time"

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