Active Unanswered
327Q Project
Moderators: Don Ayers, Al Benton, Don Vogt
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
When replacing the oil pump on the 327, is there anything I should consider when selecting a new one? Standard pressure/high volume, high pressure/high volume, etc. I'm not sure what I need.
Below are some photos of the old one, showing the casting numbers.
Thanks in advance for the help!
Below are some photos of the old one, showing the casting numbers.
Thanks in advance for the help!
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
-
- Posts: 697
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am
- Contact:
I buy oil pumps from these guys:
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/-st ... gories.bok
They build blueprinted pumps for what I think is a great price. The pump produces better volume even as a standard pump. If you engine has been rebuilt, the standard pump is lots. The HV pump is for engines that are used in high rpm applications on a really regular basis. You can read their information page to see what they do to a stock pump. I wouldn't use anything else. I also recommend you buy the hi performance pump shaft. It's cheap, and it's about five times stronger than a stock one. Anyone that has had a pump shaft break while the engine is running knows that 15 bucks in this case buys a lot of peace of mind.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/-st ... gories.bok
They build blueprinted pumps for what I think is a great price. The pump produces better volume even as a standard pump. If you engine has been rebuilt, the standard pump is lots. The HV pump is for engines that are used in high rpm applications on a really regular basis. You can read their information page to see what they do to a stock pump. I wouldn't use anything else. I also recommend you buy the hi performance pump shaft. It's cheap, and it's about five times stronger than a stock one. Anyone that has had a pump shaft break while the engine is running knows that 15 bucks in this case buys a lot of peace of mind.
- Paul P
- Posts: 622
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
- Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
- Contact:
I "might" go for a HV but would never go for a "HP" on an engine project for a boat unless it was some sort of a go-fast. The HP pumps are known for causing bearing erosion and overcoming the pressure relief systems which tend to bypass the oil filter depending on motor and model.
Speaking for the 427 contingent, the stock Melling is absolutely up to the task, and at higher rpm it is fully capable of filling the valve covers with oil. Many of us use Holly jets as restrictors to the rocker assembly for this reason. I can't speak for the SBC motors but I wonder about going away from the stock pump when our motors generally stay in the 4000 rpm range. Just my two cents
Precision Pumps, by the way, has a very good reputation.
Regards,
Paul
Speaking for the 427 contingent, the stock Melling is absolutely up to the task, and at higher rpm it is fully capable of filling the valve covers with oil. Many of us use Holly jets as restrictors to the rocker assembly for this reason. I can't speak for the SBC motors but I wonder about going away from the stock pump when our motors generally stay in the 4000 rpm range. Just my two cents
Precision Pumps, by the way, has a very good reputation.
Regards,
Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
- quitchabitchin
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
- Location: Oxford, OH
- Contact:
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
Thanks Andy, hope all is well with the family.
I ended up with a Melling M55 SV replacement. I kept the old pickup.
I picked up the block and heads from the machine shop a couple weeks ago. Just waiting for some warm weather to start painting and assembly. I ended keeping the 327 heads and just rebuilt and replaced pretty much everything on the lower end. I used the same Lunati cam as you on the rebuild. I doubt I'll see little in the way of added HP in the end. For now, it will remain a true 327. I have a 350 in the barn that I can try farther down the road if I want to try more HP.
Heads: 1.94/1.50 valves, new valve guides, springs, push rods, hardened seats, head bolts.
Block: Cleaned, flux'd, decked, honed, and bored .030. New Lunati 10120100LK cam and lifter set, new pistons & rings, new oil pump.
New gaskets throughout, bolts replaced, rebuilt fuel pump and carb, and all the other stuff cleaned, painted.
I ended up with a Melling M55 SV replacement. I kept the old pickup.
I picked up the block and heads from the machine shop a couple weeks ago. Just waiting for some warm weather to start painting and assembly. I ended keeping the 327 heads and just rebuilt and replaced pretty much everything on the lower end. I used the same Lunati cam as you on the rebuild. I doubt I'll see little in the way of added HP in the end. For now, it will remain a true 327. I have a 350 in the barn that I can try farther down the road if I want to try more HP.
Heads: 1.94/1.50 valves, new valve guides, springs, push rods, hardened seats, head bolts.
Block: Cleaned, flux'd, decked, honed, and bored .030. New Lunati 10120100LK cam and lifter set, new pistons & rings, new oil pump.
New gaskets throughout, bolts replaced, rebuilt fuel pump and carb, and all the other stuff cleaned, painted.
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
- quitchabitchin
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
- Location: Oxford, OH
- Contact:
You will surely see added HP with that cam. It has approx .030" higher lift on both the intake and exhaust lobes and also more duration. I think it is a good choice and can't wait to see how it performs. Looking good, hopefully I can get back to this project soon.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q
CCABC Board of Directors Member
CCABC Board of Directors Member
- quitchabitchin
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
- Location: Oxford, OH
- Contact:
- quitchabitchin
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
- Location: Oxford, OH
- Contact:
The original heads did not have accessory holes tapped into the front of them, so there was no good place to mount the Accell coil, it was mounted to one of the water pump bolts. I looked all over for a mounting bracket for the coil that could be bolted to the front of the head, but couldn't find anything. The coil mounting bracket, which is very small, did not have enough reach to get past the end of the manifold or the hose going to the riser, so I had a friend fabricate a mounting bracket.
It can be adjusted exactly how I want the coil to sit and is going to work perfectly. I am surprised that I could not find anything like this in the automotive aftermarket.
It can be adjusted exactly how I want the coil to sit and is going to work perfectly. I am surprised that I could not find anything like this in the automotive aftermarket.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q
CCABC Board of Directors Member
CCABC Board of Directors Member
-
- Posts: 2092
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:41 pm
- Location: Powhatan Courthouse Virginia
- Contact:
Hard to believe that is my old engine! Nice work!
Just back from Tavares, NICE SHOW>
You will need to haul this boat down there for us all to see when finished.. You will make it.
John in Va.
Just back from Tavares, NICE SHOW>
You will need to haul this boat down there for us all to see when finished.. You will make it.
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
- quitchabitchin
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
- Location: Oxford, OH
- Contact:
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
Looking good Andy, glad to see you back at it. I really like the coil bracket.
I'm still waiting for some warm weather so I can start spraying on some paint. I've been shopping for all the miscellaneous fittings, plugs, drains, hoses, etc. just to keep the ball rolling while I wait for the sun.
Needed to buy new exhaust deflectors & elbows as mine were badly rusted and cracked. Looks like the risers and logs will be fine. There is plenty of iron left.
Cleaned up and tested the alternator last weekend.
I'm still waiting for some warm weather so I can start spraying on some paint. I've been shopping for all the miscellaneous fittings, plugs, drains, hoses, etc. just to keep the ball rolling while I wait for the sun.
Needed to buy new exhaust deflectors & elbows as mine were badly rusted and cracked. Looks like the risers and logs will be fine. There is plenty of iron left.
Cleaned up and tested the alternator last weekend.
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
Jim Staib
www.finewoodboats.com
1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
1968 Century 17' Resorter FG-68-174
www.finewoodboats.com
1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
1968 Century 17' Resorter FG-68-174
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 2092
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:41 pm
- Location: Powhatan Courthouse Virginia
- Contact:
Those ends of yours being so rusted, I would wonder about the logs? Pressure texting them is a chore though.
Glad jim had the ends.
John in Va.
Glad jim had the ends.
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 2092
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:41 pm
- Location: Powhatan Courthouse Virginia
- Contact:
I have several logs in a shed....one set I just took off in recent months was ten years old..fresh water cooled but salt water environment....but they look really good. The more modern mercruiser type from my other engine failed internally.
I think the old logs drain better because of the angle they are on..;...??
Let me know if you want to try my old ones.
John in Va.
I think the old logs drain better because of the angle they are on..;...??
Let me know if you want to try my old ones.
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
Re: 327Q Project
Got the parts back from the blaster on Monday. The logs look great but the risers have me concerned. There are no cracks in the iron and there is still plenty of thickness`. But on the inside, I can feel the iron has rusted through the upper water passage (?). I wish I had a cross section of a riser to see what they are supposed to look like. In the photo below, you should be able to see the hole on the inside. Is this a problem? Does this passage separate exhaust gasses from water? Or prevent a back-flow of water?
Thanks!
Thanks!
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 2092
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:41 pm
- Location: Powhatan Courthouse Virginia
- Contact:
Re: 327Q Project
A while back I smashed one of those style risers with a sledge hammer just to see what was inside.....very complex arrangement and rusted badly.
Now I guess I should have been more surgical in my opening technique because who knows how many of the TOO MANY interior jacket flakes were floating around in there or knocked off by my pounding???
Bottom line...I would not trust those risers....no way.
John in Va.
Now I guess I should have been more surgical in my opening technique because who knows how many of the TOO MANY interior jacket flakes were floating around in there or knocked off by my pounding???
Bottom line...I would not trust those risers....no way.
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
- Chad Durren
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:39 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
- Contact:
Re: 327Q Project
Just got an email from Dave at Classic Boat Connection. I sent him my original decals several months ago to have them reproduced. The photos of the new decals (stickers) shows them under the mounting film.
He now carries decals for the following models:
$15 each
283-185 HP
327F-210HP
431-275HP
427-300HP
307Q-200HP
307QA-200HP
307Q-200HP
327QA-230HP
350Q-235HP
The fuel recommendation decals and the L.H. and R.H. Rotation decals.
He now carries decals for the following models:
$15 each
283-185 HP
327F-210HP
431-275HP
427-300HP
307Q-200HP
307QA-200HP
307Q-200HP
327QA-230HP
350Q-235HP
The fuel recommendation decals and the L.H. and R.H. Rotation decals.
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport
- quitchabitchin
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
- Location: Oxford, OH
- Contact:
Re: 327Q Project
Here's a little something I scored this weekend. Hopefully I can get the cooling system part figured out. I have been looking for these for quite a while and think they will add to the Resto Mod theme of the boat.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q
CCABC Board of Directors Member
CCABC Board of Directors Member
-
- Posts: 2092
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:41 pm
- Location: Powhatan Courthouse Virginia
- Contact:
Re: 327Q Project
Wow, those are neat! Never seen any like that? What are they made of? Plumbing should be doable. Will look great. You are doing that old engine of mine proud!
Wonder if you should pressure test them first.
John in Va.
Wonder if you should pressure test them first.
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
- quitchabitchin
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
- Location: Oxford, OH
- Contact:
Re: 327Q Project
These are kind of a Holy Grail type of find. They are all aluminum and just need a good cleaning and polish. I have been looking for them for a looong time and rarely find the SBC versions available. If you have an Olds or Ford, they are very easy to find. Turns out my brother in law found 2 sets in a week and bought both. This set was in a guy's garage and he sold the boat 30 years ago. The other set has been powdercoated white but are otherwise in excellent shape.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q
CCABC Board of Directors Member
CCABC Board of Directors Member
- Paul P
- Posts: 622
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
- Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
- Contact:
Re: 327Q Project
Hey I just now saw this thread and now I understand.
We're talking about aluminum exhaust logs here and yes I do have an opinion !
This style of log is a one way deal. All Chris Craft logs appear to be two way, in other words there are two passes through the exhaust long, one in from the front and down the length of the casting, and then a u-turn and return pathway back. The Edelbrock system looks to be functionally the same as the Nicson and Glenwood styles with one way circulation.
This is not necessarily a bad thing because all of these manufacturers seem to have been able to meet their requirements with their own system. Chris Craft was perhaps more interested in maintining internal engine temperature than they were, however, because it seems that there is PLENTY of water in all these systems to cool engines.
When you get yours bolted up, think about feeding the exhaust log from the back (the lower elevation) because that assures you will never have an air pocket at the top of the manifold. I did this with my 427 Glenwood adaptation for that reason, did not want to melt an aluminum exhaust manifold. My 1959 or 1960 vintage 283 H (now a 327 with a LOT more power and heat) came stock with aluminum exhaust logs and they also feed from the downhill side, making a pass toward the front of the motor, and then back to enter the engine block once heated.
All of the systems run the water through the exhaust log FIRST in order to provide warm water to the motor. It seems there is more of a concern about getting warm pre-heated water to the motor than there is actually cooling it. Many systems have a bypass and thermostat to help with that.
I have a lot of diagrams and have done some custom work as well, so once you get your system thouht out, give me a shot at it and I'll critique it for you.
By the way, those exhaust logs are very very cool. Nice find !!
Now while you're at it, if you want to swap out that Q intake manifold lemme know too, as I know someone who has done it. If we have already had this conversation please forgive me, I have so many of these tech discussions during the course of a month I can't keep em all straight.
Regards,
Paul
We're talking about aluminum exhaust logs here and yes I do have an opinion !
This style of log is a one way deal. All Chris Craft logs appear to be two way, in other words there are two passes through the exhaust long, one in from the front and down the length of the casting, and then a u-turn and return pathway back. The Edelbrock system looks to be functionally the same as the Nicson and Glenwood styles with one way circulation.
This is not necessarily a bad thing because all of these manufacturers seem to have been able to meet their requirements with their own system. Chris Craft was perhaps more interested in maintining internal engine temperature than they were, however, because it seems that there is PLENTY of water in all these systems to cool engines.
When you get yours bolted up, think about feeding the exhaust log from the back (the lower elevation) because that assures you will never have an air pocket at the top of the manifold. I did this with my 427 Glenwood adaptation for that reason, did not want to melt an aluminum exhaust manifold. My 1959 or 1960 vintage 283 H (now a 327 with a LOT more power and heat) came stock with aluminum exhaust logs and they also feed from the downhill side, making a pass toward the front of the motor, and then back to enter the engine block once heated.
All of the systems run the water through the exhaust log FIRST in order to provide warm water to the motor. It seems there is more of a concern about getting warm pre-heated water to the motor than there is actually cooling it. Many systems have a bypass and thermostat to help with that.
I have a lot of diagrams and have done some custom work as well, so once you get your system thouht out, give me a shot at it and I'll critique it for you.
By the way, those exhaust logs are very very cool. Nice find !!
Now while you're at it, if you want to swap out that Q intake manifold lemme know too, as I know someone who has done it. If we have already had this conversation please forgive me, I have so many of these tech discussions during the course of a month I can't keep em all straight.
Regards,
Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
-
- Posts: 2092
- Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:41 pm
- Location: Powhatan Courthouse Virginia
- Contact:
Re: 327Q Project
How about manifolds, apparently one-way...by "Star Marine engine works"....I have an extra set of those for my flathead....
anyone familiar?
John in Va.
anyone familiar?
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)
- quitchabitchin
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:48 pm
- Location: Oxford, OH
- Contact:
Re: 327Q Project
Right now, I only have the manifolds and elbows. The elbows have a port on them and there are two on the front caps. All of them appear to be 3/8" or 1/2". I am now on the lookout for a set of aluminum risers to match up.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q
CCABC Board of Directors Member
CCABC Board of Directors Member
Re: 327Q Project
I had a customer that had them on a flywheel forward 283. When I put a 350 in place of the 283 I had to drill out the water ports and tap them to a 1/2" pipe thread to get more water through them so they wouldn't run to hot. They were plumb with a hose from the pump to one port on front of the manifold the other port on the front went to the block then the water from the block was discharged at the riser.
This basically made the flywheel forward 283 3 pass manifold system into a 2 pass. On a Q motor you will be turning the 1 pass manifold system into a 2 pass. It will still work fine. When you get to the point of installing them and your not sure on how to plumb them contact me and i can explain it to you.
This basically made the flywheel forward 283 3 pass manifold system into a 2 pass. On a Q motor you will be turning the 1 pass manifold system into a 2 pass. It will still work fine. When you get to the point of installing them and your not sure on how to plumb them contact me and i can explain it to you.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest