K Engine stalling ... HELP!

[Dbhardin]

Hi everyone, I think this is what it feels like to reach the end of the honeymoon phase with these classic boats...Any outing that involves a paddle is not what one hoped for! I'm hoping this group can help get us back on the water.

Earlier this summer we purchased a 1957 22' Sea Skiff with a K engine. The boat had been very lightly used over the last 10 years or so, but we have been using is once or twice a week for a couple of months now, including longish trips across the Chesapeake bay and back (say 5-6 hour jaunts) and up and down the Potomac from Washington DC. The boat has been very reliable and has always started easily.

Yesterday we cruised down the Potomac for about 2 hours to a waterfront stop, no issues at all. About 30 minutes into the run home at cruising speed (~2500 RMP) the engine stalled. It re-started relatively easily, but then as we got up to speed it stalled again. After the second stall I started to investigate spark and fuel issues. At first we thought the wire from the coil to the distributor was loose, so we seated that wire, fired up and moved on. Stalled again. So we started to investigate the fuel. I noticed some sediment in the glass bowl, so i emptied that and checked the fine mesh filter screen that sits between the glass bowl and the fuel pump, which was totally clean. As I was re-filling the glass bowl by manually pumping the fuel pump, i felt like it was inconsistently adding fuel to the bowl (i.e., some pumps seemed to add fuel while others didn't seem to do much). We got running again and after one more stall were eventually able to get up to cruising speed again over the course of about 20 minutes of gradually increasing speed.

Fast forward to within 200 yards of our launch ramp, we've been running without incident for an hour and the engine stalls. This time it absolutely will not restart. We were able to get it to fire a couple of times with starting fluid, but then ran out of fluid. During this series of starting attempts, I did notice a substantial amount of dark brown sediment in the glass bowl (recall I had emptied it an hour of cruising before). So there we are, having made a 4 hour trip and dead in the water within throwing distance of home... Some kind boaters pulled us over to the ramp, so now I'm focused on salvaging Labor Day weekend.

The fuel pump was rebuilt in the past several years by the prior owner. He reported that he pulled the fuel tank and had it inspected but didn't take any action (because the inspection indicated none was needed). I don't know when this was done. I see one place in the engine compartment where a piece of rubber tubing has been sleeved over the copper line and sealed with hose clamps, but this seems to be tight and not leaking.

Where should I start in solving this problem?

I can post pictures if they would be helpful.

Thank you so much for your help!

[evansjw44]

Kind of classic symptoms of a failed coil. It is also a symptom of points rubbing block wear to where the point gap is too small. Finally, corrosion in the distributor breaker plate can cause an intermittent high resistance connection to ground of from the capacitor to the breaker plate.

These can be frustration but are also solvable,

[Dbhardin]

Jim, thank you for the super quick reply. I went back and forth in my mind whether this was a fuel or spark issue. With this boat being new to me and having many years of use ahead, I'm of a
mind to replace all of these parts. Thanks again.

[51resorter]

Sounds like sediment has gotten into the carburetor. I had similar sounding issues and changed coil, points, cap and rotor to no avail. Even though the screens stopped some of the larger sediment, the smaller stuff still gets by and clogs the jets, etc. in the carburetor. You need to clean the entire fuel system, from the tank thru the carburetor. You would be amazed how little sediment is needed in the carburetor to cause problems.

[joanroy]

The dark brown sediment in the fuel bowl could be that ethanol in the new fuel is breaking up the old fuel varnish in the tank. Common problem since the intro of ethanol.

[mfine]

Clean the fuel system and add a spin on filter with a 10 micron filter element.

Any chance you burned the fuel level lower than you normally do? Did you fill up from a different source?

[jim g]

The dark brown sediment in the fuel bowl could be that ethanol in the new fuel is breaking up the old fuel varnish in the tank. Common problem since the intro of ethanol.

If thats is the case. Its best to get a new tank, rebuild the fuel pump and have the carb rebuilt. Also another cause could be the rubber hose you mentioned. I'm willing to bet its an old hose and probably automotive hose on top of that. The ethanol thats in gas can and will swell the inside of rubber hose shut. They will still look normal from the outside.

Oh and install a good marine spin on fuel filter/water separator.

[Dbhardin]

This is all great feedback. A few responses. First, I ordered a new coil, so I should know tomorrow whether that is the issue. I also ordered replacements for the other ignition system parts and a pertronix system, so can try those things too.

My fear is that you are right about sediment and the carb. The prior owner said he avoided ethanol fuel, but I haven't been able to find a non-ethanol station within a reasonable distance, so have been running 10% blend with an additive. It could very well be shaking loose varnish from inside the tank. The fuel pump was rebuilt in 2010 and the carb in 2011, so I hope I don't have to rebuild those parts again. Hopefully I could get by cleaning them thoroughly if I solve the sediment problem.

I think our season is over if I have to replace the tank to get running again. I really want to do this right and get the reliability I need from this boat, but I also want to get another month on the water this year.

If the ignition changes don't solve the problem, I'll probably replace the fuel line, install an inline fuel/water separator (i know the issue around grounding the fuel tank), and clean the carb. That might get us though the season, then I can replace the fuel tank over the winter to deal with the sediment issue long term, unless this sounds like a terrible idea.

EDITED: I added three pics below. The first is of sediment accumulated in the glass bowl after 1.5 hours cruising time.

Before the latest run, I noticed oily coating on the side of the engine behind the fuel pump. Didn't think anything about it and wiped it clean. This is the surface after the latest 4 hour trip, it is fairly wet. I can't tell for sure whether this is gas or oil, but it is dark like the oil in this engine at this time in the season:

[joanroy]

Ethanol will also eat up the diaphragm in fuel pumps if their not rated to take it. I hate ethanol. I know it's supposedly better for the environment and that's great, but it's a big problem in our old boats. There should be non-ethanol gas available for boaters.

[jim g]

The oil leak is the valve plate gasket. This is a common leak on these engines. The gasket is probably old. They are just a cork gasket. For you I would recommend replacing it when you take the fuel pump and carb off. It will be a little easier for you to get it back on. I would also do the rear one at the same time. Sealant needs to be used on the new cork gaskets. But the most import thing is making sure the gaskets surfaces are clean and you will probably have to bend the cover plate gasket flange back to flat from the angle its at from being over tightened over the years.

Oh another thing I thought of on your fuel problem. It could also be your check valves in the pump. The original style ones are a flat rubber disc that are inside a cage. Some of the additives in todays fuel can cause the rubber to swell. When it does it will cause the valve to hang on a little. I have this happen on customers boats. It has caused problems from just being hard to start to won't run at all and everything in between. The original style valves haven't been available since a few years ago. There is a good chance that is what is in your pump.

The good news is the way the valves are made today eliminate the possibility of them hanging open if they swell.

Oh. The reason I say additives above can cause the swelling is I have rebuilt pumps in the past with the older style valves and have had them swell with non ethanol gas. I had one boat that I replaced the tank and lines and new fuel pump and rebuilt carb. Everything was new or rebuilt. I put 10 gals of fresh non ethanol gas in it. Primed the fuel pump then went home for the night. The next morning the boat started and ran for a few minutes and died. The pump would not pump fuel. Whatever was in the fuel had swelled the check valve rubber up and cause them to stick open. I replaced the valves with the new style and it cranked right up.

[Bilge Rat]

The sediment in that fuel bowl is not good for only an hour and a half run. The permanent fix would be new tank. It's well worth the expense and effort to eliminate dirty fuel from wrecking your time on the water. When I restored my Lyman, I purchased a new tank and installed the spin on fuel filter. At least now it I have an engine operating issue, I can pretty much rule out crap in the gas. I carry a spare filter and the filter wrench on board just in case though cuz $#%! happens.

[jfrprops]

way too much mess in that sediment bowl.....new tanks is the best investment any classic boater can ever make....

John in Va.

[Dbhardin]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to install a new coil this evening to see whether that is the issue. Even if it is, I clearly have some engine and fuel system work to do sooner rather than later. I'll come back with an update.

[jim g]

A picture of the newer style valves. There the one on the right.

CORRECTION: The other right. I got it backwards. The new style is the ones on the left.

[evansjw44]

One thing that is usually over looked is a bad ignition switch or a loose or corrodes fuse/clip in the ignition circuit.

[jim g]

Corrected my post with the valve pictures.

[Dbhardin]

Alright, just returned from trying to start the boat with the new coil installed. The coil made no difference whatsoever, but hey, at least now I have a new coil and probably won't have to worry about that for a while.

However, I did learn more about the problem. After at first the engine wouldn't start, I removed the glass sediment bowl and emptied the junk and gas. When I replaced the glass bowl on the fuel pump, guess what? I couldn't get the pump to fill the glass bowl with fuel! I think this means we were right in thinking this is a fuel supply issue. I have the materials here to replace the fuel line and install a screw-on filter. I will have the fuel pump rebuilt or get a rebuilt one to swap on and see if those changes get me going for the rest of this season.

If not, the pickup is probably clogged, and if I have to pull the tank, I'm going to replace it, which I will do this winter regardless.

Thanks for all of your help; I'll keep you posted.

For schadenfreude, here is a video of me unsuccessfully operating the fuel pump (victory video will come later):

https://youtu.be/EPgQbe4A2lc

[jim g]

You need to replace the gasket that seals the glass bowl. Modern fuel makes the cork hard after a year and most of the time they won't reseal after removing the bowl. Also do not tighten the bowl on to tight. All your doing by that is bending the aluminum housing were the seal sits.

Go to napa and get a piece of cork gasket paper and make a new one. Don't make one out of rubber. They just swell up and disintegrate.


If the bowl won't seal it won't create a suction.

[Dbhardin]

Continuing the quest to salvage Labor Day weekend.

Anyone know a place where I can get a rebuilt K fuel pump or rebuild kit in the DC area?

I pulled the tank, which has a little debris and will be replaced soon. The pickup is completely clear, so I have a fuel pump problem. Today I'm replacing the fuel line and installing a spin on filter.

[ClassOf56]

For a quick fix, just buy a cheap electric fuel pump and put it in line with some flex hose and hose clamps to save the weekend.

I have had to do this on old cars and it pumps right thru the old pump, no problems.

Be sure to bypass the ground connection, as you know.

[mfine]

If you do the above, make sure it is a low pressure electric pump made for carbs and not injectors.

Also, put in the spin on fuel filter and clean lines first or you will just pump more crap into your carbs.

Speaking of crap in carbs, you probably have some and cannot expect the boat to run well unless you are very lucky. Therefore, you really want an oil pressure cutoff switch on the electric fuel pump. You don't want the engine to die but have the pump still sending fuel. Your only protection would be the float needle and the hope that there are no leaks. Given all the junk eventually goes through the float needle valve, I wouldn't have that much faith in it until everything is clean and the fuel filter is in place.

In summary, I wouldn't recommend rushing back into service this weekend.

[tkhersom]

One thing that I notice in reading through all these comments is that there has been no mention of a condenser. I agree that it sounds like your problems are fuel related, but I do want to mention that I have replaced three condensers in the last year on two different boats. New ones are junk for the most part. I have bought Petronix kits so that I do not have to deal with this problem any longer.

I have a friend who works on old cars, trucks, and jeeps tell me that in 30 years he only replaced about 2 condensers and in the last year and a half has had to replace 7.

On a side note: I was in DC on the weekend of August 15th looking out over the Potomac wishing I knew someone who could pick me up at the Gaylord and take me for a ride out on those waters. Oh well, maybe next time.

[Dbhardin]

Thanks to everyone for the help. Time for a wrap-up and to put this thread to rest.

After all of the great advice in this thread around fuel issues, I pulled the fuel tank and fuel line. Here is what I found in the fuel tank:

To my eye the tank appears to be in good condition but for the sediment. The fuel pickup looked good, was completely clear and has obviously been replaced sometime in the not distant past. So the first thing I did was to replace the fuel line with a modern fuel line and to install a spin-on filter:

So far so good. After filling the fuel line, the engine cranked right away and I thought there must have been a vacuum leak in the fuel line as was discussed above re: the piece of rubber line spliced inline within the engine box. We went out for a Friday on the water and had a great time. There was one scare when we stopped when the engine died right after re-starting, so we suspected the problem was not entirely cured.

The next morning I replaced the fuel pump with a rebuilt one, and replaced the other ignition parts (I had replaced the coil as a first try at the problem). By this point, on the fuel side I have inspected the fuel tank and pickup, replaced the fuel line, installed the spin-on filter, and replaced the fuel pump with a newly rebuilt model. On the ignition side, I have replaced the battery, coil, entire distributor that was rebuilt with Pertronix, new wires, and new plugs. After adjusting the timing at idle on the trailer and then in the water at idle and WOT, things seemed to be where they needed to be. We had a great Labor Day weekend on the water with friends. Idle and at speed (you can hear the fun in the background):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqY7cWCPkeA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIkBphDSY3U

So problem, solved, right?

Fast forward to yesterday, I take the kids out for a "3 hour cruise" and we make it about 15 minutes down the river before the fuel starvation issues strike again. At this point, I know the carb is unreliable because it is full of junk, as you all warned me. I can sometimes get it to crank with full choke, and it will fire with ether, but will not run. We call for a tow and head back in:

So now I am sure the carb needs to be rebuilt. If we're out of commission for a few weeks anyhow, I'm planning to go ahead with the complete rebuild that was planned for the winter. I'll be calling some of the usual suspects in NY/NJ today, but if anyone has a good recommendation in the DC/mid-Atlantic, I'd be open to hearing about it.

Thank you all for your great help; tons of lessons learned for a new woody boater here, and we'll get her back on the water with solid reliability soon. All the best,

[tkhersom]

I have probably mentioned this already, but PLEASE make sure your tank is grounded. The rubber hose is a great solution (as long as you purchased the hose that tolerates ethanol), but the old copper tubing was the ground for the tank.

If the tank is not grounded it can be fatal.

[mfine]

Fatal has such a negative connotation. I prefer to say, "you and your friends may have a blast out on the water."

[Dbhardin]

Thank you for that...I did run a ground wire from the tank to the common ground on the engine. I'll still die somehow, but hopefully not by static ignition of my fuel tank!